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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Digging and Finding >> Archaeology - Opinions?

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Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 11:41:03 AM    KBbottles Posts: 1403 Joined: 2/24/2010 From: South Brunswick, NJ Status: offline Hello all, Just wanted to share some thoughts on controversy out there.  I am a recent college grad and minored in Archaeology.  Went to Beloit College in Wisconsin which is the home town of Roy Chapman Andrews (whom Indiana Jones is based off of).  In my classes, we touched on historic archaeology and had a valuable home on campus that was built in the 1840s.  The school decided to put a parking lot next to the home and uncovered an old cistern that had been filled in.  Before the parking lot was placed, the archaeology department decided to do field work on the cistern, but only dug out the first two feet very meticulously and catalogued every single little bit of artifacts (even did float samples for seeds and plant materials).  They found a lot of glass but didn't get much whole samples at that layer besides a nice old diamond ink.  Every single piece of broken shards were catalogued.  I got to do some of the grunt work to label them.  Noticed quite a bit of pontils.  Some of the teachers don't think much of historic artifacts and still consider it "trash" and too recent to really spend so much time ****yzing and studying, while others take it very seriously.  I begged the head of the department to dig out the entire cistern and go all the way down, but he said they didnt have enough time to save and properly mark each and every little bitty specimen.  Bummer!!  There had to be really good bottles down there.  At least the location of the site is recorded and safe beneath the parking lot now.  Anybody ever run into something like this when privy digging, etc?  I personally like the idea of at least making a report of provenance after excavating a site and have recorded some of the keepers I have found from dump sites, but most of this info is lost when bottles are traded, and especially with dump sites, who would give up the location any way? Thoughts?? _____________________________ Collecting NJ Pontil Sodas and anything else pontiled from NJ. Locals from New Brunswick, Kingston, Princeton, and South Brunswick area towns. Also starting to collect quart historical flasks that I like (and can afford!) Post #: 1

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 12:18:50 PM    rockbot Posts: 3279 Joined: 6/17/2009 From: Hilo, Hawaii Status: offline Hi Ken, my entire dug collection is marked and labeled by dig site location. I felt it important to keep them organized this way. In the future when I can't dig any more I can do my research or if I pass my collection on to someone they can. Aloha, Rocky _____________________________ " I got my own shovel ready project" (in reply to KBbottles) Post #: 2

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 12:38:14 PM    logueb   Posts: 2885 Joined: 1/6/2007 Status: offline Where in the college library that you attended would you find the information about bottles that you find on this forum?  We as dump and privy diggers collect the data, ****yize the artifacts and draw a picture of a culture that is foreign to us. Therefore; we find ourselves doing the work that anthropologist do. The scientific study of the origin, the behavior, and the physical, social, and cultural development of humans. We combine anthropology with archaelogy :: The systematic study of past human life and culture by the recovery and examination of remaining material evidence, such as graves, buildings, tools, and pottery. There are several members of the forum that write articles about the history of the area that they are digging and the artifacts that are found. I know that we are looked down upon by the  trained Archaeological experts, but there is  a lot of knowledge that is shared on this forum that otherwise would be unavailable.  A lot of the sites we dig would be considered of little value to the trained archaeologist.  How many articles have you read about sites that were checked and the only thing found was just  "a few old bottles". We save a lot of history of glass that otherwise would be destroyed by the wrecking ball and bulldozer.  We dig, we study, and we share. Just my thoughts.  Buster _____________________________ Buster Bottle Bug Bit with no cure in sight. (in reply to KBbottles) Post #: 3

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 4:58:58 PM    diggermeister Posts: 340 Joined: 5/3/2005 From: NORTH CAROLINA Status: offline I say 'Dig 'em up'. The professionals either think it's a waist of their time or they waist their time counting every shard and seed while development encroaches and history is lost. If they are in a truly ancient or significant site with a lack of knowledge as to the society that created it then the standard slow layer be layer plod & catalog is appropriate. When it comes to a dump or privy is it really important to know how many seeds were pooped out and if the layer 3' down differs from the one 3' 2" down. I think not. < Message edited by diggermeister -- 3/5/2010 5:00:01 PM > _____________________________ Please Visit My Web Site http://privypro.com for Quality Spring Steel Privy Probes! FREE Shipping! (in reply to logueb) Post #: 4

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 5:23:32 PM    cyberdigger Posts: 11900 Joined: 11/29/2008 From: I 195 @ US 9, NJ USA Status: online I say it's a bummer that they didn't dig it to the bottom.. then again, whatever popped out of there would have ended up in a storage room with a catalog # and that's about it.. if archaeologists don't take 19th century glass seriously, they should leave it for people who do! (in reply to diggermeister) Post #: 5

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 5:28:48 PM    diggermeister Posts: 340 Joined: 5/3/2005 From: NORTH CAROLINA Status: offline Testify, Cyberdigger! _____________________________ Please Visit My Web Site http://privypro.com for Quality Spring Steel Privy Probes! FREE Shipping! (in reply to cyberdigger) Post #: 6

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 5:56:24 PM    Digswithstick Posts: 2068 Joined: 3/6/2008 From: north west pa Status: offline There is a state or states that is illegal to dig a privie without a state certified Archy present (paid by digger) .We should all be glad most are not interested and quickly brush this under the rug   _____________________________ Digswithstick (in reply to diggermeister) Post #: 7

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 6:00:13 PM    baltbottles   Posts: 2201 Joined: 11/25/2002 From: Baltimore Maryland Status: offline One of the reasons historic archeology is not as common place as we would like to see is the amount of artifacts an urban site can generate. One large bricklined privy can have several hundred pounds of artifacts and the cost of sorting and cataloging theses artifacts alone with permanent storage is tremendous. Also Historic archeology rarely makes you a big player in the archeology community. And there are many archeologists that are more worried about making a career then saving history. Chris _____________________________ Please visit my website Antique Bottles Of Baltimore at : www.baltimorebottles.com Looking to buy Pontiled Baltimore bottles of all types Email me at baltimorebottles@gmail.com (in reply to diggermeister) Post #: 8

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 6:09:29 PM    bostaurus   Posts: 2078 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline Maybe someone bottle collector/digger will make their millions and then endow a chair in historical archeology. Maybe even fund a historical archeology center that would have classes to train diggers and artifact hunters how to date and record their finds and then act as a storage and compilation center for those records. The records would be available to amateurs and professional researchers. The collectors would have the fruits of their labor and the historians/archeologists would have their information....One can dream.... _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to baltbottles) Post #: 9

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 7:11:04 PM    Lordbud   Posts: 2247 Joined: 6/16/2005 From: San Jose Status: offline What it is, is Buried Treasure! Whether a marble, spittoon, bottle, coin or doll's head finding the unknown, the potential treasure is what it's all about. Not for the paper-dollar value but the intrinsic value. An antique object handmade by a trained artisan who produced each and every old bottle or coin or almost any item thrown away 100+ years ago... _____________________________ Jason San Francisco Bay Area bottles and go-withs. (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 10

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 8:58:04 PM    CALDIGR2 Posts: 2162 Joined: 6/20/2005 Status: offline An archaeologist ONLY looks at any given site, be it prehistoric or historical, with a professional eye. Not to say that they know everything, but they only do it because it is their job, plain and simple. No archy will ever consider doing what we do because they would not be paid for the effort. Like others have said, their primary concern is making money and building a career. They do not have the "feel", or should i say passion, for privy digging. I am familiar with a few local historical archys and they feel the same way about us. We are the willful destroyers of history, but would they spend hours probing lots and backyards in hopes of finding a few bottles? NO WAY! I have yet to see an archy dig with out heavy machinery to clear away surface debris and overburden. They are money driven, period, end of story. _____________________________ Dig no privy before it's time. (in reply to Lordbud) Post #: 11

RE: Archeology - Opinions? - 3/5/2010 9:07:44 PM    willong   Posts: 122 Joined: 4/22/2009 From: Port Angeles, WA Status: offline "... if archaeologists don't take 19th century glass seriously, they should leave it for people who do! " WELL SAID! In my opinion, many of the "professionals" are just elitist snobs, who resent seeing us "serfs" enjoying ourselves. I say, let them spend their time and our tax dollars on developing knowledge of ancient, unknown, and undocumented cultures and aspects of cultures, rather than digging up nice collectibles from thoroughly-documented regions and eras of recent history, only to squirrel them away where the public never gets to enjoy them. Hell, they won't even photograph their finds and post electronic images onto a website where the public can view, discuss, and elaborate upon the subject; thus adding to the pool of knowledge. OH, WAIT! There already is a website like that. I've seen knowledgeable individuals interject information on the molding methods, glass houses and dates of manufacture, vendor's business histories, and similar valuable information. Are any of you professional archaeologists out there paying attention to this site? Will Long   (in reply to cyberdigger) Post #: 12

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/6/2010 12:10:16 PM    surfaceone Posts: 5750 Joined: 12/9/2008 Status: offline Hey Kenneth, Lemme ask you, "What would the reaction have been had you dug the rest of that cistern, under cloak of darkness, if need be? Would they have even noticed, assuming some kinda restorative appearance shovel work would'a happened? Would'ya have been sent to Guantanamo Bay if caught? I know a local historic archeologist professor. Met him in the course of my very first dig, along with a few of his graduate students. We had show & tell in a back booth of a saloon across the street from the dig. I learned a ton. Got really stoked behind digging. The Professor is a few years older than I. I was greeted and not viewed with distain or antipithy, at least while present and buying drinks. Got lectured by one of the grad students about digging with too much overburden above. Heard of the "Loaded Missed Cistern" by another of the students who sounded like he was a collector, or an opportunistic digger like the rest of us. Haven't crossed shovels with him in quite a while. I've volunteered on a couple of digs, and clearly do not have the patience for the methodology of traditional or academic archeology. I appreciate learning of Historic Archeologic discoveries, perhaps more than Ancient discoveries, because I can better relate to Post Colonial times, though am fascinated no matter the age. I think that Archeology on the historic level could "streamline methods" so that the expense in time & dollars of cataloging and storing every worthless shard or lump could be eliminated. I can only imagine the gazillions of man hours that would be involved in inventorying and cataloging the stuff that has already been dug and stacked un-****ysed and forgotten in some institutional warehouse. What is the current academic line on us plunderers and privy pirates? I'd like to think we're not too much on the radar... (in reply to KBbottles) Post #: 13

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/8/2010 10:39:22 PM    THE BADGER   Posts: 548 Joined: 3/2/2009 From: BETHLEHEM,PA. Status: offline my little 2 cents,i had a place in new jersey i was digging and detecting and found tremendous artifacts i had full permission to be there until the landowner which was a future church found out that the site was of historic importance then they wanted me out so as not to bring the archeologists there and shut down building of their church.i have noticed that most people just careabout what they need.the church doesnt care about the history they just want their church built.the archeologists usually(not every one)tend to let serfs like us do all the leg work and then step in and stop things once we find everything for them.we are considered lesser beings and grave robbers which i dont understand because if you talk with bottle diggers some should be teaching classes to archeologists.sorry about the venting. (in reply to surfaceone) Post #: 14

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/9/2010 3:53:00 AM    cordilleran   Posts: 757 Joined: 2/13/2008 From: Washington Status: offline Historic archaeology is just another name for social welfare. Fact is, these folks feed off of grants used to perpetrate useless, uninspired digs. The longer the duration the better. As welfare recipients, many of these so-called archaeologists are kept from a life of meaningless indifference. They would NOT work in a job beneath them -- washing dishes or say, as a cashier in a fast food emporium -- as that is beneath their self-perceived self-worth. They have never had to live by their wits and GOD FORBID if the funding and justification for their existence was ever removed, they would be the first to self-immolate taking other unknowing souls with them. Do a Google check to see where stimulus monies are going. That said, the entire concept of self-esteem among such elitist pseudo-intellectuals is bought and maintained through intimidation and denegration. They are the harbingers of ALL knowledge and they will deprive anyone of usurping their power and self-worth, as specious as it is. The concept of entitlement is inculcated at every level of public education. Such a mindset is furthered through popular media and the pervasive vapor than surrounds like-minded individuals. They feed upon one another's sense of superiority and purposefully expand this miasma to all other less enlightened souls who are deemed as ignorant bullocks. If the poison takes hold, it is encouraged and rewarded. If there is even the slightest sense of recalcitrance in the host participant, said person is marginalized and inevitably disenfranchized. You will be deprived of the American Dream of self-determination not based on your merits but rather, because you reject the message of your messianic superiors. So, there we have it. Self-professed intellectuals -- regardless of stripe -- don't care a whit about social progress or sharing the wealth of ages for the betterment of all. Theirs is a narrowly perceived inclusion excluding all those who fail to sign on to their oppressively strictured and myopic worldview of utopian bliss. That includes pretty much all of us grass-roots folks that have had to sweat and sacrifice for our medial existence and capture fleeting moments of bliss in pursuit of hobbies. Remember the Pareto ****-ysis. It's an 80-20 paradigm (give or take a percentile variable depending on the system scrutinized). I submit to you that such a non-inclusionary concept of republic is a foreign language to this species. They will insist unique membership with the 20-percent, despite the fact that most of this 20-percent minority has historically consisted of mavericks balking at government intrusion; certainly these rebels comprise the truest innovators and selfless actualizers that have given us the bulk of benefits scientifically, spiritually, emotionally and intellectually. These self-annointed poseurs -- psychic vampires and autocrats all -- share a homogenized credo being whomever wields the club of government dictate calls the shots. Unless you are part of the club you are, regardless of merit or altrusitic intent, beaten senseless and left by the side of the road to absolutist, totalitarian "enlightenment". Without an awakening among the common people to take back the light, our hobby will increasingly be curtailed to the point of a distant memory spoken in hushed tones to incredulous grandchildren. < Message edited by cordilleran -- 3/9/2010 3:54:53 AM > _____________________________ A life unchallenged is a life unlived. (in reply to surfaceone) Post #: 15

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/9/2010 8:58:02 AM    sandchip Posts: 1555 Joined: 9/1/2008 From: georgia Status: offline Amen, brother!  Aside from that, they also need to stay the Hell out of the legislative process in their attempt to outlaw collecting altogether, which is their ultimate goal.  They fail to remember that 90% of all sites, both historic and prehistoric were discovered by collectors in the first place.  They won't get off their lazy asses and do anything unless the money's flowing, and when it dries up, they quit no matter what remains and what may be destroyed by development. _____________________________ Jimbo (in reply to cordilleran) Post #: 16

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/9/2010 9:18:13 AM    tigue710 Posts: 3884 Joined: 7/11/2007 From: connecticut - nor cal Status: online archeologist have been a thorn in my side...  Disturbing sacred burial sites and complaining when I look to dig up items I find interesting and historically significant that they view as trash better off sifted through for coins...  In New London when a few sites were uncovered during the fort Trumbull incident that had potential for early Native American burials and artifacts they shut down a job site, and brought in a back hoe to dig test pits.  After finding nothing significant, (besides the fact if they had asked I could of told the history of the site and their "original Marsh" was actually fill) they proceeded to rip up a few small dump sites with the machine smashing anything in it.  They sifted for valuable metal, and then left the area, with out cataloging a single shard... _____________________________ •={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=•={•}=• Ok, more realistic, tomorrow Im digging a clear slick! (in reply to sandchip) Post #: 17

RE: Archaeology - Opinions? - 3/9/2010 10:24:04 AM    blobbottlebob Posts: 3356 Joined: 12/20/2005 From: Wisconsin Status: offline Hey KB, Nice to know that there is another Wisconsinite on here. You've generated an impressive conversation on the nature of our hobby. Here's what I'm wondering; is it too late to just go out and there dig it? Can you do it on your own time (as a few people on here have suggested). You've been told that they are done with it. If it isn't too late, it will shortly be covered by a parking lot and all of that history is potentially lost forever. If these were conscientious historians, they would undertake their duties a bit more seriously. Since they don't, I say dig it and dig it some more.They've moved on to the parking lot stage so, you need to move on too. There's glass down there waiting for the light of day! (in reply to KBbottles) Post #: 18

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