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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Sodas - Embossed, Paper Label and ACLs. >> EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO)

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EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/27/2010 12:10:20 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline                                 ~ EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) ~   Unlike my earlier thread under a similar title, (which primarily dealt with early crown-top soda bottles in general) Part Two will focus only on "Major Brands," and my seemingly neverending quest to identify the first major brand to transition from the Hutchinson bottles to Crown bottles.  You would think that a major change as significant as this would have generated some specific advertising to herald in this "new age" of soda bottles. But in my continuing research I have not found a single advertisement or reference along these lines. It seems that the transition "just happened" one day and little or nothing was ever said about it. Surely it was a major event for brands like Dr Pepper - Hires Rootbeer, and Coca Cola ... and yet there is (to my knowledge) no readily availabe information on when thease various transition were made. Possibly only in various company archives will I ever find the answer. But as we all know, most (if not all) of these records are inaccessable to the general public. Thus, requiring someone like myself to "dig" around the internet in the hope that some day I will be able to say with conviction ... "This is the first Crown-top soda bottle ever produced."  In terms of general interest, here is a nut-shell reference to the invention of the Crown closure. Notice the mention of Dr Pepper and El Paso, Texas. We know that Dr Pepper was first introduced in Waco, Texas in 1885, and that their first bottle was obviously a Hutchinson. But is it possible (based on the text below) that El Paso was home to the nation's very first Crown-top soda bottle?  Perhaps some day we will have a definitive answer.   (Note: Please allow me to complete 3 or 4 additional pages before posting replies - Thanks ... SODAPOPBOB).                                                                  ~ * ~  The crown cap was not an immediate success since it required new bottles, new bottling machinery, and a level of uniformity of bottle manufacture that was just beginning to be possible in the early 20th century. It was also possibly perceived as being "too good to be true" - the corollary to the human inclination to resist change.  There was also already a lot of fully functional beverage bottles in use that only accepted other closure types; businesses could not or would not make the large investment in new bottles without some proof that this new closure was a significant improvement on the old. Although it has been noted that by 1905 less than 25% of U. S. bottlers had adopted the crown finish/bottles, some areas seemed to have adapted to the new closure earlier.  For example, El Paso, TX. appeared to have the majority of bottles with crown finishes by 1905 or so. Conversion also came a little faster in New England and the Mid-West.  Dating Notes:  It appears that no crown finish bottles date prior to the 1892 patent date. In fact, virtually all crown finish (soda and beer) bottles date to after ca. 1894-1895, since in 1893 a national depression (the famous "Panic of 1893") made investment capital very scarce for several years deterring the use of new and expensive equipment like that needed to accommodate this new closure.  As an example of the progression in acceptance of this finish/closure style, the crown finish first shows up in the 1896 Illinois Glass Co. catalog with just one soda bottle offering. In 1899 the IGCo. offered several different crown soda bottles. By 1903 21 different soda bottle molds were listed with crown finishes, and 37 different molds listed by 1911.    Attachment (1) Post #: 1

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/27/2010 12:16:43 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline Here's the photo that put me on the "band-wagon" for Part Two. It is an old photo of a very early Dr Pepper wagon showing both the Hutchinson and Crown bottles. (Date unknown, but surely turn of the century). I wish I could make out the label on the crown bottle, and would sincerely appreciate it if someone has specific information on it to share it with the rest of us. Thanks. SPB Attachment (1) (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 2

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/27/2010 12:25:00 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline And here's the earliest Hires Rootbeer ad I have been able to locate so far ... Dated 1896.  So far Dr Pepper and Hires are in the spotlight as being the earliest major brands to use the crown-top bottle. But which was first?  Stay tuned and hopefully I (with the help of others) will eventually have the answer. And what was Coca Cola, Pepsi and others doing at the time ... ???   Lots of questions, few bonified answers! Thanks again to all, SODAPOPBOB (We've seen this one before!)  Attachment (1) (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 3

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/27/2010 2:04:18 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline A side project of mine will also include research on the first bottle "openers."  Because without a devise to open the newly invented crown-top bottles, how would anyone be able to open one? With this type of devise intended both for practical use as well as advertising, hopefully it will connect me to more specific brands and dates. Here's what I have come up with so far ... note the date of 1894. Bottle openers were introduced around 1894, when they put the first bottle caps on bottles. They needed a cap lifter for them, and William Painter, from Baltimore, Maryland, invented it. Actually he was trying to invent the bottle cap, the crown cap. But because he needed it, he came up with a little cast-iron opener to pop that cap. And they caught on… both the crown caps and the openers. It spread all over the country. Here's just one example of an early opener ... dated circa 1900. As yet I have found nothing specific on a 1894 one   ... but will continue to search. (Note:  Apparently the holes on the right of this particular opener were intended to "adjust ?" the headlights on early automobiles. Until now I didn't know they were even adjustable).  ??? SPB Attachment (1) < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/27/2010 2:05:11 PM > (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 4

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/27/2010 2:54:21 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline I realize this is slightly off-topic, and include it here primarily because I have found numerous of the early bottle openers with the automobile headlight adjusters on them. Here's a Winston Touring Car made in 1903 (California, Idaho, New York) and clearly shows why an adjuster was needed. In fact, it appears as though they didn't know where to stop with the design ... as this particular model has more headlights than you can shake a stick at! (Just another small piece of a much larger puzzle). SPB    Attachment (1) < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/27/2010 2:56:08 PM > (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 5

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 3:16:04 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline I'm still trying to date/identify the old black-and-white Dr Pepper wagon photo, but have run into a bit of a stumbling block that I could use some help with. Hopefully a Dr Pepper collector/expert will be able to clairify the following statement for me ... "King of Beverages” was one of the first slogans for the soft drink Dr. Pepper (later simply “Dr Pepper,” without the period). Several websites claim that the slogan was used from 1889-1914, but “King of Beverages” appears to be first used in a 1906 newspaper advertisement. I know horse and buggies were still around in 1906, but something tells me the photo is older than that. Surely the controversy of the slogan date must have been resolved by now. But I have been unable to fully confirm and/or disclaim it either way.  Plus, I would dearly love to find an image or anything showing and discussing the paper label on the crown bottle.  If someone can help me out here I would sincerely appreciate it. Thanks a lot, SPB Here's a photo of the "Artesian," Waco, Texas bottling plant ... but doubtful the photo was taken in front of it. This particular ad dates ... 1907     Attachment (1) (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 6

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 6:41:35 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline That wagon was the float of Keay's Bottling Works at the Baton Rouge, LA Mardi Gras Parade on February 27, 1906. The Hutch bottle represented their soda water flavors and the crown for their 'leading drink' Dr. Pepper. The label reads "Dr. Pepper Phos Ferrates - Wheat and Iron with a picture of an anvil." (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 7

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 7:21:23 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline celery ~ Thanks a million. I can't tell you how many times I looked at that label and couldn't make it out. The wheat looked like a couple of hands, and I never did have a clue regarding the anvil. So that dates the photo. But what is your opinion (or facts) regarding the date for the "King Of Beverages" slogan?  1906/07 or earlier? And while we are on the subject, do you have a "confirmed" date for their first crown-top bottle? Thanks again, SPB (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 8

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 9:48:50 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline You should check with the Dr. Pepper collectors or one of the well documented histories, particularly the book written by long time Dr. Pepper employee Harry Ellis who started the Dr. Pepper archives. My only interest in Dr. Pepper is due to one of their other soft drinks called Celery Champagne. Celery=Cola was bottled in Hutches starting in 1899 in Birmingham. When the bottling operation was spun off as a franchise in 1901 they started using crowns in addition to Hutches. Celery=Cola was bottled in a Hutch as late as 1909 by the franchise bottler in Charleston, WV. Coca-Cola started in Birmingham in 1901 using exclusively crown bottles. They added Hutch bottles a year later for soda water because the reusable stoppers were cheaper. Of all the towns that had a Hutch embossed Coca-Cola the only one that ever used them for Coke instead of soda water was Atlanta in 1899. They quickly discovered that the rubber seal on the Hutch stopper caused a bad taste in the Coca-Cola and had to use the more expensive crown stoppers. If you look at soda water price lists from the time you see that a case of Coca-Cola cost about ten cents more than soda water to pay for the non-reusable crown stoppers. The National Dope Company operated 1909-1911 and used both Hutches and crowns for the whole time. When that company was renamed Birmingham Bottling Company in 1911 they continued to use both Hutches and crowns at least to 1914 when federal law forced them to emboss the capacity on their Hutches. Pepsi-Cola had been bottled across the South in crown bottles for several years before the Pensacola FL franchise opened in 1909 and used a Hutch bottle. Look into the history and you'll see there was no 'cut-off' for switching from Hutches to crowns. Many bottlers used both concurrently for many years. Probably the biggest reason to switch was the fact that you could bottle more quickly using crowns. When automatic crown bottling machines appeared in the larger bottling plants Hutches were used only by the very small bottlers. In 1912 the Birmingham Coca-Cola Bottling Company was bottling fifty thousand bottles of Coca-Cola a day in straight-side bottles. They could never have done that using Hutches. (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 9

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 10:30:02 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline celery ~ Thanks. You are very articulate in your writing form, and I appreciate that as much as anything. I have searched through and read so many Historical documents (at least those I have found online) that I am almost blurry eyed. And yet, even with this said, I continually run across terms like "circa" - "around" etc. regarding dates of when this or that company first started using crown bottles. Maybe there is no easy soloution and that my number one question will never be answered. But one would sure think it wouldn't be so difficult to determine ...                    "When" and "Who" used the first Crown-Closure soda bottle? Even Bill Lockhart and Bill Lindsey admit they don't know the answer, and have added that "it's a good question!" But it seems to be a good question without a clear answer. Maybe it's no big deal, but it continues to intrigue me with a whimsical obsession.  Thanks so much for the contribution. I will take your advise to heart and employ it dilligently. Just watch, someone will pop up out of nowhere and say ... "Gee, why didn't you just ask me? The first major brand of soda pop to use a crown-top bottle was ... " SPB    < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/28/2010 10:32:49 PM > (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 10

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 11:21:20 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline Since Crown Cork & Seal Company was based in Baltimore I suspect the first bottler to use a crown was a local one. There is a Baltimore Bottle Book but I don;t have a copy. (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 11

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/28/2010 11:41:39 PM    blobbottlebob Posts: 3661 Joined: 12/20/2005 From: Wisconsin Status: offline quote: You would think that a major change as significant as this would have generated some specific advertising to herald in this "new age" of soda bottles. Hey SPB, I love the zeal with which you are pursuing the answers to your questions.  I also agree that Celerycola is spot on. It seems like bottlers way back when were more concerned with practical - useful - affordable glass bottles than they were with the exact type that they used. When hutches began to replace mineral waters, there was a long transition. (For example: Some bottlers put hutch stoppers in earlier long necked bottles.) It makes sense that the same occurred when crowns took over. One of the events that drove bottlers from hutchinsons towards crowns had to be the advent (and acceptance) of automatic bottle making machines. Those produced crowns in astounding numbers. Until then, there is likely overlap and shared usage. (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 12

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/29/2010 12:20:10 AM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline celery & blob ~ Thanks to you both. Great minds must think alike; because researching the Baltimore, Maryland area for answers is exactly the avenue Bill Lindsey recommended that I pursue. Which I have done to some extent, but as yet have not found what I have been looking for. I fully understand the transition aspect, and agree there was a lot more going on than meets the eye. I keep hoping I will stumble onto some old advertisment with a headline stating something like ...      Amazing Breakthrough Introduced For 100% Sterilized Bottled Beverages!                 Drink "Bob's Cola" and Taste The Difference For Yourself!                  The all New ... "CROWN" OF SODA BOTTLES!     Anyhoo ... the search continues, and I welcome all comments and photos. Thanks again, SPB     Attachment (1) < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/29/2010 12:24:32 AM > (in reply to blobbottlebob) Post #: 13

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/29/2010 1:53:05 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline I realize this may seem like kicking a dead horse / going in circles / groping for straws ... but the patent illustration below clearly shows that the capability of capping soda bottles was available right from the get-go in 1892. And even though I have yet to find a specific reference as to when-and-who was the first to use this new invention, I seriously doubt William Painter just stood around twiddling his thumbs for years doing nothing. Following his original patent for a manually operated capping devise, Painter made at least three or four improvements to it (with new patent numbers granted) between 1892 and 1900. Surely someone was using it by 1900 ... but who?  Hires?  Possibly ... but he earliest ad I have come up with on Hires using a crown-top bottle is 1896.  Bill Lindsey is confident that "someone" was making and distributing crown-top bottles as early as 1894. But the question and research continues ... Who? I'll be back ... Thanks, SPB  Attachment (1) < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/29/2010 1:57:45 PM > (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 14

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS ... (PART TWO) - 6/29/2010 1:55:10 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline Regarding the "Crown Cork & Seal Company" ... 1892-A New Industry Foreman and inventor William Painter patents the 'crown cork' and soon thereafter starts the Crown Cork & Seal Company of Baltimore, Maryland. < Message edited by SODAPOPBOB -- 6/29/2010 1:59:25 PM > (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 15

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS April 30, 1893 with a pic ... - 6/29/2010 2:12:22 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline Found this in a quick search. Beer - not soda. Wolters Brewing Co Savannah GA Attachment (1) (in reply to SODAPOPBOB) Post #: 16

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS April 30, 1893 with a pic ... - 6/29/2010 2:16:24 PM    SODAPOPBOB   Posts: 3678 Joined: 3/10/2010 Status: offline celery ~ Thanks ... but I can't quite read it (too small of print). Is there a date associated with it? Thanks, SPB (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 17

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS Canada 1893 - 6/29/2010 2:17:04 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline Another Beer Bottler Attachment (1) (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 18

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS England 1894 - 6/29/2010 2:18:10 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline Soda Bottler using both crowns and Codds Attachment (1) (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 19

RE: EARLIEST CROWN-TOP SODAS First Brand Name 1897 - 6/29/2010 2:23:20 PM    celerycola   Posts: 1141 Joined: 2/20/2004 From: Alabama Status: offline Kola Champagne Kola Tonic Iron Brew Cyclade Jubile etc Kingston, Jamaica Attachment (1) (in reply to celerycola) Post #: 20

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