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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits

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Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 3:43:12 PM    |MDB|   Posts: 56 Joined: 10/17/2011 From: Acadia Status: offline There are several posts on this forum regarding Jean Marie Farina. All of the posted examples are known counterfeit bottles circa 1850s and are clear, short and multi-paneled bottles. Does anyone have an original, long green Farina phial with a label? The attached picture shows three counterfeit short bottles and one genuine long, green-glass one, as well a '4711' cologne bottle with label since the 4711 product's history is contemporary with, and used a similar formula as, the Farina product. I have inserted in the attached image a photo of an original long, green Farina specimen, obtained online. Does anyone have any useful information on when the Farina company stopped using the tapered green phial-like vessel in favor of a clear-glass, short multi-paneled bottle? This is the information already posted to this site but sans info on the genuine article: "Eau de Cologne is said to have been invented by Giovanni Paolo de Feminis towards the end of the 17th century. On October 8th, 1792, the Cologne merchant Wilhelm Mülhens received as a wedding present an old parchment with the recipe for "aquamirabilis" miracle water). He recognised the value of this gift and started to manufacture this Eau de Cologne (water from Cologne). However, Gianmaria Farina is also said to have acquired the recipe, and he started manufacturing an 'admirable' in 1714. "The use of the actual name 'Eau de Cologne' is documented from 1742. In 1810, Napoleon I decreed that it was only allowed to be sold as a perfume, not as a medicine. It was during the French occupation of Cologne that the brand name '4711' was coined. In order to tax the inhabitants more efficiently, all the houses in Cologne were numbered consecutively, and the house of the Mülhens family was house no. 4711. After seven generations of Mülhens managers, the firm was sold in 1994 to the Wella concern." Attachment (1) < Message edited by |MDB| -- 10/19/2011 3:45:36 PM > Post #: 1

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 4:19:36 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline I have found a few of those clear hexagonal ones and they always came out of sites much later than the 1850s. More like 1880s-1890s. Others have probably found them also. _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to |MDB|) Post #: 2

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 4:28:14 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline quote: Jean Marie Farina Here is a vial supposedly from 1840-1850s. from http://books.google.com/books?id=6O4EykAA1YQC&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22Jean+Marie+Farina%22+bottle+label&source=bl&ots=aiRi299aA3&sig=8F6ONqhiXWnQVzDhLn9V9X21iUc&hl=en&ei=TjGfTpW1CKb30gHOsqScCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CG8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Jean%20Marie%20Farina%22%20bottle%20label&f=false Attachment (1) _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 3

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 5:18:23 PM    |MDB|   Posts: 56 Joined: 10/17/2011 From: Acadia Status: offline Hello, AntiqueMeds. Thanks for posting the image of a Farina clear glass phial. All of the previous posts to this forum of Farina products were of the short multi-sided clear glass bottle variety. The green glass phial with spiral label likely was the earliest design; the clear glass phial with non-spiral label probably was the second packaging design; and the short multi-sided clear glass bottle seems to have been the final design. The latter probably was toward a stronger, longer-lasting bottle. PS: the mid1850s was a rough estimate, your estimate is more accurate. < Message edited by |MDB| -- 10/19/2011 5:23:41 PM > (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 4

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 7:00:35 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline The plain sheared lip bottles seem pretty typical of late 19th century European. Ive seen it on French and German bottles. The USA rarely used that type of lip finish after the mid 19th century. I expect it made a reliable closure difficult. Why do you call the later clear bottles conterfeits? Is that documented somewhere? < Message edited by AntiqueMeds -- 10/19/2011 7:01:34 PM > _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to |MDB|) Post #: 5

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 7:15:05 PM    |MDB|   Posts: 56 Joined: 10/17/2011 From: Acadia Status: offline Hi, AntiqueMeds. Two of mine have pontil scars and look legit except that a member here on this site sent an email to the Farina perfume company and he posted the company's reply to him. The company informed him that the item was counterfeit due to the address on the bottles being different from the proper labeling of "Vis a vis Place Juliers No. 4". His bottle read "A la Place Juliers No.4" if I recall correctly. Two of the three I dug also read "A la Place Juliers No.4" while the third one says "Place Juliers No.4" I did not realize they were counterfeits until I read it on this site. < Message edited by |MDB| -- 10/19/2011 7:16:40 PM > (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 6

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 9:00:41 PM    RIBottleguy Posts: 1000 Joined: 3/5/2008 From: South Kingstown, RI Status: online I'm a little confused about the whole counterfeit thing.  I know for a fact that any dug bottle dug in context with similar aged bottles is not fake.  Are you saying the hexagonal bottles were made by someone who wasn't part of Jean Marie Farina's company?  It is very likely some of these bottles, though they originated from Europe, were made in America due to its popularity.  I had a hexagonal pontiled one I could guarantee you is from the 1840s-1850s.  Anyway, best of luck finding this elusive green phial! (in reply to |MDB|) Post #: 7

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 9:02:45 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline Interesting. a la place and vis a vis place basically mean about the same thing to me. I could see either being used on a bottle. I wonder what the ads used around that time? _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to |MDB|) Post #: 8

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 9:06:52 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline its tough to use the pontil mark for dating on the French perfume bottles. Ones like Lubin were pontil marked up until 1900. The form likely didnt vary through much of the 19th century. _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 9

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 9:12:04 PM    cyberdigger Posts: 12301 Joined: 11/29/2008 From: I 195 @ US 9, NJ USA Status: offline From reading this interesting thread, it seems I might have one of the early ones W/O label.. unless this bottle type was used by other companies.. it would be nice to know for sure.. Attachment (1) (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 10

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 10/19/2011 9:24:51 PM    AntiqueMeds   Posts: 2028 Joined: 3/6/2009 From: Frederick, MD. Status: offline Looking through the early New York newspapers I see a LOT of differenet people claiming to be importing GENUINE Farina cologne. It was very popular and that always meant a lot of cheap copycats. So I'd say conterfeits were very likely. There was even a joke article about a British gent who went to Cologne to buy a bunch of Farina perfume and he found half the people in town were distilling it and selling it. He got ripped of of course. Nice bottle Charlie. Seems like I have also seen that form with olive oil labels (or some type of food oil?). < Message edited by AntiqueMeds -- 10/19/2011 9:26:23 PM > _____________________________ My web site - http://www.AntiqueMedicines.com/ Medicine BLOG : http://antiquemedicines.com/blog/ Email me : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to cyberdigger) Post #: 11

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 1/27/2012 5:30:09 PM    RIBottleguy Posts: 1000 Joined: 3/5/2008 From: South Kingstown, RI Status: online I just acquired one of the large green phials with the original label that reads "Johann Maria Farina/ Julichs Platz No. 4"  It doesn't have a pontil but looks to be 1870s.  I'll post a picture soon.  Oh, and it's for sale. (in reply to AntiqueMeds) Post #: 12

RE: Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits - 1/27/2012 5:58:33 PM    RIBottleguy Posts: 1000 Joined: 3/5/2008 From: South Kingstown, RI Status: online Here are some pics: (in reply to RIBottleguy) Post #: 13

All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> Genuine Farina perfume and counterfeits

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