LockedGot another puzzler for ya!

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PaintersLady
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2005/06/01 23:28:39 (permalink)

Got another puzzler for ya!

Hubby has a bottle that we can't find in any book, so we figured we'd ask ya'll...
Sorry, no picture, but I'll try to describe as best I can.

12" tall, 3 piece mold. (Wine or Whiskey)
Lady's Leg neck
Embossed AMER PICON (with a hand under this)
and then PHILIPPEVILLE
Looks to be Iron pontil
possible wooden mold, big air bubble near seam
Olive green in color
Anybody out there got a clue??? (Where is Philippeville???????

Thanks!
Rachelle and Wade
#1

15 Replies Related Threads

    grdigger35
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2005/06/02 00:06:13 (permalink)
    Rachelle & Wade, What you have is a bitters bottle. It is listed in Kovel's under Bitters. Worth $50.00 plus or minus a few bucks.

    Dale Stannard
    #2
    PaintersLady
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2005/06/02 02:10:55 (permalink)
    Thanks Sweetie!
    Ya'll are great!!

    Rachelle
    #3
    Bottle tumbler
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2005/06/02 08:29:33 (permalink)
    wooden molds???? what would happen to a wooden mold if you put heated glass into around 1800 degrees. hmmm
    even if it was soaked in water.
    you would have one major problem,
    #4
    KentOhio
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2005/06/02 22:38:49 (permalink)
    A glassblower I know says wooden molds can produce about 1,000 bottles before they wear out. Any kind of wooden mold for glass is made of cherry and kept constantly soaking, except when in use. It requires a good wetting down between blows.
    #5
    whosyerdaddy
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2005/06/03 10:02:03 (permalink)
    always heard those whittle marks were caused from the hot glass hitting the cold mold after the mold heated it wasnt as bad kina like the bottle shivering uno lol whosyer !!
    #6
    Calbottlegirl
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 14:39:44 (permalink)
    I have one any takers? Will post!
    #7
    coreya
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 15:40:19 (permalink)
    here are a bunch of wood molds for glass blowing just FYI

    [image]











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    #8
    cowseatmaize
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 16:01:41 (permalink)
    Yes but it the mold embossed? I think probably not. That would wear out in a few at best I'd think.

    Eric
     
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    RED Matthews
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 16:53:25 (permalink)
    This has turned into an interesting thread. I guess it is time to make some comments - for what they might do to help others.
    Wooden molds date back many years. To the best of my studies, wood was used in the days of the Roman Empire and from there, it was quite common in Germany and Europe. There just wasn't a lot of reference to what was used. We know that Iron wood was used. The Fruit Tree Wood was very successful because of the close grain of these trees. Apple and Cherry wood were written about in early American book coverage. Close grain wood held up better as the water submersion was dispersed more evenly. I have some bottles that I am sure were made in wooden molds, but not because of seeing wooden grain evidence. I think the most obvious identity of wooden mold glass; comes from the erosion and burning away of the parting line edges; especially on the seams at the shoulders. Wooden mold bottles will have more charred wood on each side of the mold shoulder area. A used wooden mold has to be cleaned and placed back in the water for soaking. This cleaning would give the mold cavity, early material loss in this mold cavity area.

    The thing called whittle, was not developed because of someone whittling the wood. Wooden molds were machined and shaped, but not whittled. There was no known embossed lettering in any wooden molds. Wooden molds are still made for special reproduction efforts, especially for museums. Whittle in the appearance of old glass bottles was caused by the variable glass thickness in the bottles side walls; because of the blown glass going against molds that were too cold and the glass solidification was created in variable thickness. I tried to cover this some in my homepage blog on the subject: Cold Mold Ripple.

    I know I am going to be timed out on this. I will be right back. RED Matthews
    #10
    RED Matthews
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 17:00:30 (permalink)

    Back, I just went to my old files and picked up this writing from 9/07/2008

    Have you read their "Out-of-the-Mold" booklet that was written and compiled by Mrs. Gay Taylor? In that booklet on page 8, there is a picture of a hinged wooden 2-part mold. It even shows a wooden dowel and a hole in the other mold half, to assure proper alignment when the mold is closed. There is also a picture there of a wooden mold for making a lightning rod ball. These molds were made and used in 1900 to 1920 by the C. Dorflinger & Sons in White Mills, Penna. to prove they could do it. The molds were then saved by the Wheaton Museum.

    Anyway, I am confident I have two or three bottles that were made in wooden molds. I wrote about one of them in my homepage article on Cold Mold Ripple. My wife recently bought a digital camera and I hope to take some pictures that will illustrate the unique characteristics of this bottle. The other two are early Keene or Stoddard type of medical bottles. The only thing with those two bottles that confirms the wood mold reality is the burn-out in the upper corners of the shoulders. They both have this problem.

    I have read every reference I can find on wooden mold bottle production of bottles. There just isn't much written. The big mystery of their success, in my mind, is how they survived the temperature of the glass contact to the mold. I am sure they no doubt water soaked the molds before use. I am also quite sure they used a paste protection in the cavities of the molds, before use. This paste was possibly bees wax and sulfur powder.

    I figure that powdered sulfur was used, because when I went into the glass business I was amazed at how much powdered sulfur was put into the iron molds. The machine operators used to keep some in a bucket and using a wire handled cotton swab, they kept in the bucket of powder, to impact the sulfur into the open molds, especially around the necks of the molds; while the machine was running. The sulfur burned on the surface of the iron and relieved the checking they were seeing on the set-out bottles for stress test breakage. When the industry tried to stop this action - they brought in an old lunch box and kept the powder in that, under their bench, with the bent twisted handle of the swab
    bent over so the lunch box could be closed.

    I am equally sure that after a few bottles were made in a wooden mold, they would have had to clean the mold cavity surface to remove some of the carbon build-up. This big demijohn I have, shows some areas where the mold size was increased by the carbonized wood that had to be brushed or scraped out of the cavity. The edges of the mold seams are raised higher on the mold seams than they would have been if blown in a metal mold.

    I didn't take the time to re read it - So here is some more coverage anyway. RED Matthews
    #11
    RED Matthews
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 17:16:54 (permalink)
    Back again with another picked up bit of information.
    This was written on a demijohn creation study.

    Well you have given me quite a job – and I realize that I have procrastinated on doing a complete blog on the subject of wooden molds. The reason for this is that I cannot find answers enough to satisfy the questions I generate in my head.

    For example, I know that the early wooden molds had to have been drilled on the parting face and held together in a positive vertical and horizontal location to make the seams of the cavity be held together properly.

    I also have found out about a mold shop that still makes wooden molds for certain reproduction efforts; which doesn’t seem right to me that we need the copy the real thing. The only logic is to make money. Museums do it, Glass houses in different countries do it and it has been going on since the early American Flask bottles that people wanted to own and couldn’t find from the low quantities of the basic production made to hold a product. So it is all nothing new – just a fact of demand, calling for the products.

    There are some wooden molds that I hope to examine this year at the Wheaton Museum in Millville NJ. I just haven’t been able to schedule a visit there yet. I have been there at least two dozen times when I was working with selling to glass industries all over a big part of the world. I have found that there are some at the Corning Museum and expect to be over there three of four times this summer.

    I also know that I have two med bottles that were made in wooden molds. How I know; is, by the burned shoulder matches, giving the shoulder mold seam a different match of height, than one would see in a metal mold. There are other signs of seam deterioration because of this. I have two oval bottles that I feel were made in wooden molds and three demijohns that were made in wooden molds. One of the demijohns had a plugged vent hole on the shoulder, that caused a big air trapped dimpled circle around the vent hole that is about: 2-1/2” inches in diameter. There is mold seam burn on both shoulder side seams.

    Another wood mold demi I have has a mold seam that goes from the neck down the side, across the bottom and up the other side to the shoulder. This demi is pictured in my home page blog – mainly because of the fold mark on the bottom which was created with a wooden tool to cool the glass bottom before it was set down on its bottom to apply the neck glass on and tooled for the tapered finish. This bottle has another bottle mystery that I can not resolve because the mold halves on one side seam has a 45º off set in the mold halves that is about an inch long and a good ¾” vertical difference, which had to be a method of vertical location of the mold halves. From this I have to assume that there was a dowel system on the other side mold parting face.

    Another demi I have was made in a four part wooden mold. I also have some demi’s that have different blistered shoulders and glass surface differences that I feel were caused because of a different mold material having been used. What ? who knows? I know there were bisque fired clay molds used, but the books one reads, do not explain all the history of how early glass was made. Also the job security of the early bottle makers was part of their job security if they didn’t tell others how the did everything. They only taught the members of their own shop team.

    Well - I hope this gives you something to think about. Please feel free to send me any questioning subject coverage you are pondering. I have to get to Wheaton - hopefully this summer. RED Matthews
    #12
    RED Matthews
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 17:35:43 (permalink)
    Well I started another post and lost it.

    Wooden molds soaked in water produced steam with the contact of the glass. This gave time to let the glass bottles skin set up enough to help extend the life of the molds Wood was used for no doubt at least 4 or 500 years before metal. There was some clay and ceramic molds used. With all the books I have read, there were a lot of details that didn't get printed.

    Kent Ohio, I would like to get in touch with your person with some wooden mold experience. I hope to get to Wheaton this summer. Corning Glass has got some reading set aside for me this summer, also.

    It is a fun hobby - regardless. RED Matthews
    #13
    cowseatmaize
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 18:11:18 (permalink)
    Great info as usual Red. If you happen through MA on your way to NY via NJ look me up. My place is too small but my sister is very hospitable, I'll put a word in.
    This whole topic got me looking into wooden molds. I should stop collecting books now and just wait for you. I finally got Knittles book on your advice and it's great! Thanks for the suggestion.

    I got some more info on the Philippeville bottle in the meantime. It looks like "AMER PICON" originated in Algeria in 1837 and was made for a long time and later as a French colony also made. It's hard to say without a picture but I think the bottle is very late, probably turn of the century or ever later. It's still made and one of the bitters for before and after meals.

    Eric
     
    #14
    RED Matthews
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 18:46:24 (permalink)
    Well Eric, I am glad you got Knittle's book. That woman's writing answered a 45 year old question I had about When, Where, Why and Who started chilling the cavity of bottle mold iron. It stumped a meeting of engineers and management at out Thatcher Glass people from all over the plants in our country. My boss was sure the VP of Manufacturing would fire me. He didn't - but the question was answered by reading Knittle's book.
    I have made a list of my glass books library. I will complete a review in NY this summer, and expect to list it as a library reference list on my homepage.
    Some of the most important books are:
    > A Treasury of American Bottles by William C. Ketchum
    > Bottles of the Canadian Parries by George Chopping
    > The Mouth Blown Bottle by Grace Kendrick
    > The Antique Bottle Collector by Grace Kendrick

    There are a lot of them. No doubt my list will help others look and hopefully they will tell me about some that I haven't found yet. My list is seven pages long with spaces and one or two lines for each one. If I attempted to briefly cover the main contents subject it would be too long.

    This FORUM is great and I hope my long wind, helps some with extra interest. I see a lot of posted What is it Worth questions. That isn't the objective people could benefit from as much as realizing how the glass was made back when.
    RED Matthews
    #15
    AntiqueMeds
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    RE: Got another puzzler for ya! 2012/06/13 19:19:46 (permalink)
    Yes but it the mold embossed? I think probably not. That would wear out in a few at best I'd think


    It would be difficult to get anything but very large crude embossing from a wooden mold.
    I've never heard of anyone even trying.
    Some of the best glass molds now days are supposedly made of graphite.
    #16
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