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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ...

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Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 11/9/2003 2:17:12 PM    sez   Posts: 2 Joined: 11/9/2003 Status: offline Hi There, I wonder if anyone can help... I have found a torpedo shaped bottle about 9 inches long - I believe it's called a 'Hamilton' style...it has the following moulded writing ... H.D Rawlings Nassau Street London ...with an eagle emblem at the bottom. We have found out via the net that HD Rawlings started business around 1754 and they joined with R Whites at some point in the 1800's (I think) but have not been able to find any information on their bottle types and what year the one I've found may be. We think it's a mineral water bottle, it's clear glass and only has one or two minor scratches, which is amazing since we found it on the banks of the Thames. Any info would be appreciated, Many Thanks Post #: 1

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 11/9/2003 5:14:46 PM    IRISH   Posts: 1238 Joined: 11/23/2002 From: cockatoo Australia Status: offline Hi sez, welcome to the bottle forum. The torpedo shaped bottles are indeed called Hamiltons, I think its after the bloke who patented the soda water that went into the first ones made (1800-1810'ish), the idea behind them was that they don't stand up so the cork never drys out and leaks. They mostly had soda water in them and where made up till about 1900 here, maybe a bit later in some places (I think the japanese used them up until WW2). As to the age of your one, most made after the 1850s-60s have blob tops, before then a lot had a wrap top and some very early ones are pontiled although the only pictorial one (so far) is from Hodgsons (can't remember where that's from London I think). (in reply to sez) Post #: 2

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 11/9/2003 5:32:13 PM    sez   Posts: 2 Joined: 11/9/2003 Status: offline Nice one Irish - Thanks for that info ...am looking at it now and thinking it maybe a blob top but I dont actually know the difference...would this pic help you to tell me whether it's a blob top, wrap or pontiled top? Thanks again Sez Attachment (1) _____________________________ sez (in reply to sez) Post #: 3

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 11/9/2003 5:45:16 PM    Pontiled   Posts: 411 Joined: 8/27/2003 Status: offline Your Hamilton bottle should date from the late 1800's. I've had quite a few of these, bought from a friend in England. They are interesting items that are most commonly found from the UK and Australia. The few manufacturers in the United States made very few of them and they were colored (green, olive green, and cobalt blue). Now, if you want to have some fun, try to find the holders for a Hamilton. That will give you a real goal, but the small size (Rawlings made two sizes) is very hard to find! _____________________________ Mike Russell Author of: The Collector's Guide to Civil War Period Bottles and Jars -- Third Edition (in reply to sez) Post #: 4

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 11/9/2003 6:39:58 PM    IRISH   Posts: 1238 Joined: 11/23/2002 From: cockatoo Australia Status: offline That's a blob top, nice looking torp that I agree with Pontiled that it's from the late 1800s most likely around the 1890s. PS the pontil refers to a mark left on the bottom (point) of the bottle from a manufacturing process that was mostly outdated by the 1850s, anyone here got a photo of a pontiled torpedo they can post ? (in reply to sez) Post #: 5

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 2/15/2004 6:51:00 PM    David E Dearden   Posts: 196 Joined: 7/16/2003 Status: offline My botttle is the same as the picture SEZ posted but different information Pale green torpedo, blob top quite a lot of embosing on it-- ARNOLD & PERRETT & Co Limited on top in center a large W inside what looks like two picture frames Trade mark on both sides and bottom WICKWAR. Thanks for year and area of common or not, also country. _____________________________ David E Dearden (in reply to sez) Post #: 6

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 2/16/2004 3:04:01 PM    David E Dearden   Posts: 196 Joined: 7/16/2003 Status: offline quote: WICKWAR. Disrecard my request I found it on the Web. _____________________________ David E Dearden (in reply to sez) Post #: 7

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 3/5/2004 1:16:33 AM    Bluegrass   Posts: 84 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: offline Here's the only pontiled Hamilton I could find. You can't see the pontil but you can tell by the flattened look of the base that it's in there! It's next to impossible to find them pontiled in the States as they tended to make them smooth based all through the pontil era here. This one is British and there are quite a few examples of pontiled Hamiltons from there. John. Attachment (1) _____________________________ Privy digging fanatic who'd be in a loony bin if he couldn't dig bottles! (in reply to sez) Post #: 8

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 3/5/2004 2:24:34 AM    baltbottles   Posts: 870 Joined: 11/25/2002 From: Baltimore Maryland Status: offline I have to agree with everyone about your bottle dateing to the 1890s or so. Most of the american torpedoes were made in the 1840-60 era ( the pontil era) but most are smooth base i can only think of three pontiled american torpedoes thoes are the Chapman's Soda from baltimore the Randall and Co. from baltimore and the Haddock & Sons from someware in New England not sure which state though. Also most american torpedoes are colored with Cobalt or saphire blue and shades of green being the most common colors followed by aqua and then yellow and puce colors being the rarest. Check out the link below for some pictures http://www.geocities.com/baltbottles/collection/pages/sodas.htm Chris (in reply to sez) Post #: 9

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 3/5/2004 3:07:10 PM    David E Dearden   Posts: 196 Joined: 7/16/2003 Status: offline Hi Hear is a message from a lady in Italy in regards to my torpedo bottleDate: 3/5/04 2:04:47 AM Pacific Standard Time From: lizwilde@tin.it To: Edeardavey@aol.com Sent from the Internet (Details) ÿþ Dear David, The Arnolds of Arnold Perret were ancestors of my son-in-law, Peter Wiles. The brewery in Wickwar, Gloucestershire was started by Thomas Arnold in about 1820 and run by the Arnold family until they merged with the Perret brewing firm in around 1870. The firm still exists, but the Arnold & Perret families no longer have any connection to it. If you type Arnold Perret into Google, the brewery website with a history (largely WRONG!) will appear. Peter's great grandfather, Harry Wiles married the grand-daughter of the founder, Thomas Arnold & they inherited a share in the brewery in the mid 1880's. And so this would make my bottle (No Pontile) 1870 to mid 1800. Ciao, Liz Coreglia Antelminelli Toscana, Italia _____________________________ David E Dearden (in reply to sez) Post #: 10

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 1:17:02 PM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline well hello, all I want to say is I am new to all of this, I used to collect bottles as a child and have just dragged them all out of the loft because were moving, a lot is junk but others...including what I now know as a torpedo bottle from the late 1800's, I would like to know more about. please explain what is a pontile? sorry for the ignorance. I also have another rounded bottle with no markings at all, is this just junk?? will attempt to send photos, but I may take a while. (in reply to sez) Post #: 11

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 1:57:46 PM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline really struggling with photos...here goes tho.. (in reply to sez) Post #: 12

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 3:32:38 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Hello, "Green" . . . Welcome! A pontil (note the spelling) is the iron rod which was affixed to the bottom of a bottle while the lip was finished after the bottle was removed from the blow-pipe. A pontil scar is the rough area on the bottom of the bottle left behind when the pontil rod was broken away. The pontil scar is a rough place on the bottom which will abrade your fingernail, if not cut your finger. In an earlier post, a clever, knowledgable, and good-looking list-member had this to say: To produce a "sand pontil scar" (remember "pontil" is the iron rod), the pontil rod tip is tipped with molten glass, then dipped lightly into crushed glass, sand, or crushed furnace slag. The crushed material preserves a boundary between the pontil rod glass and the glass bottle, making it easier to later separate them when the bottle is finished. The appearance of a "sand pontil scar" is that of a peppering of the bottle base with bits of crushed glass or whatever was used. Sometimes this peppering is very light, hard to discern without dragging a fingernail across the bottom surface. Sometimes it is much more prominent. If crushed furnace slag is used as the "boundary material" (notably in black glass bottles), glassgall (sodium sulphate, Na2SO4) may be transferred from the slag to the base of the bottle. This glassgall leaves a milky or turquoise discoloration around the area of the pontil scar. The iron pontil is just that. It is a bare iron rod with a mushroomed tip which is heated, then applied directly to the bottom of the still-molten bottle. Neither graphite nor crushed glass was used as a "boundary material." Because nothing but the bare iron rod was needed, it was dubbed an "improved pontil." The tip of the iron pontil rod, when broken free, left a thin layer of iron adhering to the bottle base. This iron residue is dark gray, but may oxidize to a rust-color (because it is rust!). There is no such thing as a "graphite pontil" scar. Graphite was not used as a "boundary material" or separating agent on the end of a pontil rod. The grey iron residue left by an iron pontil rod may resemble it, but it is not graphite. This is a misconception which persists because people keep using the term. The mistake is found in collector books and on amateur web-sites. The error is thus perpetuated. The term "graphite pontil [scar]" will not go away soon because it has infiltrated the jargon of collectors. New collectors may wish to opt for accuracy by developing the habit of using the term "iron pontil scar" or "improved pontil scar" when they are speaking carefully, that is, for publication. ------------Harry Pristis An "open" pontil scar, so-named because it is "open" in the center or tubular: Attachment (1) _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to sez) Post #: 13

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 6:25:13 PM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline fantastic! well now I know. got fed up trying to find where I had photos before but may be lucky this time, my bottle says:berners street, oxford street, genuine superior, aerated waters....j schweppe & co I dont know much but I,ve got a feeling that im gonna learn very quickly! I havnt attempted to clean it yet iether. (in reply to sez) Post #: 14

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 6:41:58 PM    Guest Harry Great post! green as grass Schweppes were at 51 Berners Street just off Oxford Street from 1831 to 1895. (in reply to sez)   Post #: 15

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 6:53:08 PM    woody   Posts: 1636 Joined: 10/29/2002 From: Gilmanton, New Hampshire Status: offline Yes, Harrys' description of the pontil mark should be added as a FAQ, IMHO. _____________________________ Woody (in reply to sez) Post #: 16

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 7:52:21 PM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline ok, file is too big,thats why (now I've finally worked out how to save,crop and find them again) I cant get the photos on...another 3 hours and i'll work out how to shrink it.....if the computer doesnt go through the window first....bye for now bottle lovers. (in reply to sez) Post #: 17

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/7/2004 7:58:51 PM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline harry and roger...cheers, I cant believe I actually know about this bottle now! I'm really pleased. bye for now. (in reply to sez) Post #: 18

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/9/2004 11:48:59 AM    green as grass   Posts: 6 Joined: 4/7/2004 Status: offline ok,the bottle im trying to send a photo of is green, it is rounded and bulbous with what looks like a very faint "seam" on the bottom, no other markings. like i say, its probably nothing. Picture reduced in size - please see Uploading a Picture - Admin Attachment (1) < Message edited by Admin -- 4/9/2004 12:34:06 PM > (in reply to sez) Post #: 19

RE: Help on a torpedo shaped bottle ... - 4/9/2004 2:34:16 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Appears to me to be a chianti bottle. _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to sez) Post #: 20

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