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Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/5/2004 3:16:55 AM   
Admin

 

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Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information

Antique-Bottles.Net is supporting this major project by Bill Lindsey and Members who would like to contribute their knowledge and expertise can do so here.

quote:

Hi my name is Bill Lindsey and I am in the process of creating a website for the Department of Interior's Bureau of Land Management (BLM). The website is entitled the Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website. The draft Homepage is currently located at the following URL: http://webpages.charter.net/blindsey8952/blm/index.htm

If you look at the site, it will become quickly obvious that the Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website is a work in progress and not completed as yet. The website is a "special project" that I've been allowed to pursue as an adjunct to my regular job with the BLM doing rangeland & wild horse management on our Western public lands. Needless to say, bottles are my hobby & passion and I've been collecting since a teenager (37 years of collecting).

The idea for devising a tool for archaeologists (and collectors) to date & otherwise ID old bottles has been in my head for a couple decades. I've been assisting BLM archaeologists for years in the identifying & dating of glass stuff they find during digs & cultural surveys. During this time I have noted that with very few exceptions, archaeologists have only a very limited knowledge of this subject since they are typically into prehistory and aboriginal artifacts. To be fair that is what they are taught in college; bottle and glass dating is probably just a minor component of some historic archaeology class.

There is also no real resource out there that does what is needed - provide a systematic way to ascertain the age and use of a historic bottle. The best that exists is "The Parks Canada Glass Glossary" by Jones & Sullivan (1989) which is quite good, but there is so much more information out there that could help refine the dating & typing of a bottle. Unfortunately, it is scattered around in hundreds of books and thousands of heads. Originally I thought I would attempt to do a book or guide on the subject. Then "they" invented the internet (thank you "they"!) and the vehicle for such a tool like I was thinking of became obvious...a website!

About 2 years ago my bosses, sensing that I was in need of a new challenge (I've been a range/wild horse guy for about 30 years with 3 years to retire), decided to allow me a special project knowing full well that the project would be the bottle website or functional equivalent. I've been working on it since early 2003 using government time, a lot of my personal time, and all my own personal resources (references and bottles). I have personally spent a lot of money on these resources - that is how important this project is to me. I probably have a year or two more to go on it to get it in a state that is more or less "complete" though I plan on revising and working on it forever (as a volunteer after retirement in late 2007). There will be a lot more information on the site once it is complete and beyond...

Unless the fates act against me, I will not allow the site to languish or get out of date like you note on your Homepage about other bottle sites on the internet - which is unfortunately very true. I plan on updating it regularly, making sure the links work, and adding lots more information over time. I also hope that it will be an "inviting" site for the internet public to view and use, though the site will contain a LOT of information which may make it somewhat awkward to view/use without spending some serious time figuring it out. Though it is purely my website to complete, I have several capable co-conspirators from both the cultural (archaeologists) and collector worlds assisting me with quality control, editing, information input, and the like.

Even though the overall site is incomplete many parts of it are already complete and useable. What you can see of it on the internet is what I loaded on my own personal internet server space so that a few reviewers in the collector's and academic world can view it. (All of what is completed is fully loaded on the BLM's intranet, but the public can't see that...yet.) What is loaded on my server space is not everything that is done to date. In particular, virtually none of the small pictures will actually open to the promised larger image since I just don't have enough server space to load all the large, server space sucking pictures. My personal server space must also hold my own personal webpages - which is were people are now starting to find the BLM bottle website since I recently put links to it on my personal pages.

Even though I have the full backing of the BLM on this project (it will be their site) the powers that be have not wanted to have the still partial & incomplete website loaded onto the internet - thus the loading of the main pages on my own "charter.net" server space. I probably shouldn't have it there since it is not complete and will be an official government website in the future. However, I added the links to my pages this past summer to see what happens...and I've been getting more and more interest every week. The site now pops up with regularity on search engines like Google.

Partly because of this, I recently received permission to load the incomplete site on the BLM's internet server! This is a major milestone in the progress of the site and the intent of the BLM to make this happen. It will likely have the following URL: www.blm.gov/historic_bottles. However, it is not there yet and that URL is currently nonexistent. The plan is to have the entire completed portions on the internet sometime by the end of 2004. My thought is that what is completed will still be useful as long as people realize the limitations of the moment, i.e. it's incompleteness, though once on the BLM server all the hyperlinks will work correctly and I can probably add a search function. Currently only the Homepage notes the site's incompleteness. The other pages do not so it is probably confusing to people. The soon-to-be-loaded BLM internet version will note the sites incompleteness on all the pages I think.

In any event, I am interested in what users of the Antique-Bottles.Com website think of the site and any constructive suggestions they may have to make the site better, more understandable, more useable, more whatever. The website is a public paid for and sponsored resource and needs to reflect the needs of the public as well as the archaeological community.

Thanks! Bill Lindsey


< Message edited by Admin -- 11/5/2004 3:26:08 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/5/2004 5:18:14 PM   
Pontiled

 

Posts: 411
Joined: 8/27/2003
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Hi Bill,

Glad to see someone under the Department of the Interior has taken this on. I retired from the (former) U.S. Bureau of Mines many years ago. There is a large group of books that can provide you with a lot of information about bottles in the distant past. I'll try to remember the name of them and let you know. Contact me directly at relicshop@ncol.net and we can set up a line of communications.

Glad to see you're active!

_____________________________

Mike Russell
Author of: The Collector's Guide to Civil War
Period Bottles and Jars -- Third Edition

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 2
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/5/2004 5:47:38 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Hi Mike...gosh a posting already!

I think it quite appropriate that the website is within the DOI family for a lot of reasons. One is that Richard Fike (author of "The Bottle Book" and originator of a course on ID'n and dating historic bottles) was a long time (and now retired like you) BLM'r and was one of the pioneers in the dating & classification of historic bottles.

Another is that the DOI manages a LOT of land in the US with a lot of stuff on it...including bottles. Having worked with archaeologists for years (I'm not one) I have found that with bottles they need a lot of help. It just seems that if the government was going to do it, the somewherre in the DOI is where it should be. Since the BLM has the most land of any federal agency, it seems appropriate...

Yes, I would be most interested in the list of references that you have! I do have literally hundreds of references in my possession already, but always looking for the names of others that could provide enhanced information for the website.

What did the Bureau of Mines become...the Minerals Mgmt. Service? Office of Surface Mining? Both??

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 3
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/30/2004 8:10:31 AM   
Dirty Dog

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2004
From: York, Pa
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WOW!! Bill, What an awsome sight! I started digging for just milk bottles and now I'm caught up in the whole thing. There's is just so much information I can't take it all in at once.

Thanks
Fred

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Post #: 4
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/30/2004 1:18:59 PM   
BottlesandMore

 

Posts: 44
Joined: 7/10/2003
Status: offline
Bill,
Glad to see someone taking the iniative to do such a project. I like the site, but do see some confusing things there. This may deter a novice from using and getting the most from it. Give me a shout at rodwalck@ptd.net and I will discuss some of the things I saw there. One is the statement that the presence of a pontil mark puts the bottle in the age category definatively prior to 1860 or 1865. We have been doing a number of articles on this subject, and find that the presence of a visible pontil scar does not give an accurate timeline. Point in case are the decorative and glass items such as Barber bottles. Many from the 1880's still had a visible pontil scar on the base, as do some of the later figural wine and whiskey bottles. On the other hand, you can find bottles with no visible pontil scar that are very early. The Longley's Panacea is a prime example. Although this bottle was certainly produced way prior to 1860, many examples do not show a visible pontil scar. They are of the pontil rod age, but were fire polished. If you visit the Steamboat Arabia museum in Kansas City, you will also note that even though this boat sunk in 1856, many of the bottles recovered are without pontil marks on the base. This dilema gets even more involved when you try and pinpoint a geographic area as to where the item was produced. Keep up the good work. I look forward to seeing how the site evolves.
Rod Walck
Publisher
Bottles and More Magazine

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 5
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 1/5/2005 3:32:47 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Quick update on the BLM's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Informaton Website"....it has now moved to it's permanent link on the BLM server which is as follows:

http://www.blm.gov/historic_bottles/index.htm

Though not as yet completed (later in 2005 or early 2006 I expect) it is still chock full of bottle related information including a dating key (Dating link near the top of the link bar on the left side of the main pages).

The old location of the website (my personal webspace) now only has a page that directs users to the new location.

Bill

< Message edited by jfcutter -- 1/5/2005 3:35:25 PM >


_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 6
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 1/12/2005 1:40:08 AM   
drjhostetters

 

Posts: 162
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline
Hey Bill...

Just read with interest your commentary (although my computorstupidityitis kept me from understanding a lot of it) and I give my wholehearted approval...my question is this...you mentioned working on wild horse management...did you ever work the Burns, Oregon area? The only reason I ask is, I managed a ranch between Crane and Princeton for about 5 years back in 1981-86 and your name seems remotely familier to me...we used to raise hay and we delivered hay to the wildhorse facility just outside of Burns. I too started collecting bottles about 30 years ago and the Burns-Crane-Princeton area contributed many bottles and collectables to my collection...including the bottom 3/4 of a coke bottle, embossed with a American Indian in full headdress and the inscription embossed on the bottom.."bottled at Burns, Oregon...1935" that I found sticking out of the mud in a barpit...unfortunately my wife threw it away thinking it was a "dirty old broken bottle"...she learned not to ever do that again...(almost caused a divorce!..not really but close!)

Anyway...thank you for doing such a great job to help us perserve and hold on to a little of our slowly fading past...

God bless and keep up the good work!

The Doc...

_____________________________

The Doctor...Dr. J

(in reply to jfcutter)
Post #: 7
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 1/31/2005 10:24:59 PM   
grdigger35

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/23/2004
From: Northern Michigan
Status: offline
Bill, You are definetly an ambitious man. I visited the site and almost made myself late for work. Congratulations for taking this on. Best of luck and Thank You.

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 8
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 2/1/2005 9:46:52 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Thanks!

Sorry about almost being late for work, but that makes me believe that the site has some interest to people, eh?

When my bosses allowed me to begin construction of this site for the BLM, one noted that it would be both reward and punishment. True to a point with all the time (& personal money) I've expended. However, in the end I just love working on it, looking at it, and thinking about what next to add!

Glad when bottle people out in the net world like it too...Bill

< Message edited by jfcutter -- 2/1/2005 6:46:25 PM >


_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 9
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 2/9/2005 8:13:13 PM   
wootten

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 1/16/2005
Status: offline
have you seen how many hits that you have had-wow-you need to start a new thread and keep us updated and posted on the new items that you have added and make it a site that we can go to for ALL answers-heheheheh

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Post #: 10
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 2/25/2005 7:46:18 AM   
oldshoe4u

 

Posts: 211
Joined: 2/3/2005
From: Cental NY
Status: offline
Great work Bill! I just added your site to my browser favorites and look forward to seeing more and more completed! Congratulations on pending retirement as well! If there is anything that you need from any of us please dont hesitate to ask!

BOB

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Post #: 11
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 3/4/2005 11:03:02 AM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Thanks Bob & "Wooten" for the compliments! As an update...

I just recently finished the "Bottle Body Characteristics & Mold Seams" page. The completed and edited version will be up next week (March 7th) though the partially unedited page is already on the internet.

The link is: Bottle Body Characteristics & Mold Seams

Now I'll be moving on to the "Bottle Typing/Diagnostic Shapes" page. That page will take quite a while to complete as it will contain - or link to - hundreds of pictures of "typical" shapes for various types of bottles. Yes, I know that if there is one rule in regards to shape and use of a bottle it is that the rules were often broken...and a given shape was used for all types of different products. However, there are definite trends where form follows function.

I probably won't have that page completed until late spring or maybe even late summer, depending on other work priorities. My "real" job is in public land grazing (livestock & wild horses) management administration and that season starts ramping up over the next couple months.

Stay tuned...Bill




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 12
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 4/15/2005 9:51:04 PM   
yabrokitdummy

 

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Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
Have been trying to access jf cutter's website, but no luck--it says it's down for unexpected maintanence or something. So, does anyone know anything about the value of about a 3ft. tall clear glass bottle that used to hold acid for testing metals? It has on the bottom the following inscription: MCA G STD 13G 1941.

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 13
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 4/15/2005 10:07:34 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
The BLM's Historic Bottle Website - and most all BLM websites - are not functional at the moment for reason unknown to me. Something called "unexpected maintenance" - i.e. something broke and they didn't predict. Should be up in the near future I hope.....Bill

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 14
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 5/2/2005 1:57:37 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Just to let everyone know, the Historic Bottle Website is - with most all of the Bureau of Land Management websites - still not functional due to "unanticipated maintenance."

Translation: There is currently a wave of internet security paranoia going around the Department of Interior and all websites (or the servers?) are being checked to make sure they are "secure." Secure from what I don't know...I'm too low in the pecking order to be privy to that kind of information.

Hopefully the website will be up and functional again soon, but I have no idea of the timeframes.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Bill

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 15
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 5/30/2005 9:13:50 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Hi All...the BLM's Historic Bottle Website is back on-line!

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to Admin)
Post #: 16
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/1/2006 10:23:58 PM   
PATTY

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 11/1/2006
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I was wondering I  thought purple was a  rare color for bottles?  Why would mine be a reproduction then? IF its a rare color like purple?  2 people have told me conflicting date for my flask, one told me 1980 then the other  now 1970. IT is stamped with a 1 on the bottom . I am really confused. 

(in reply to jfcutter)
Post #: 17
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/1/2006 11:35:01 PM   
jfcutter


Posts: 53
Joined: 10/27/2004
From: Beautiful Klamath Falls, Oregon
Status: offline
Hi Patty...I don't know what type bottle you are referring to but medium to dark purple is a very unusual to very rare color for old - pre machine-made - bottles.  It is commonly seen on more modern items from the mid to late 20th century, like Clevenger reproductions and other import and "art" glass.

Light purple or amethyst is pretty common for mouth-blown bottles from the 1880 to 1920 era and machine-made items from the 1905-1920s timeframe.

If your bottle is something from the last 30-50 years - like a Clevenger production - it could have been made from the same mold and have the same color whether made just before the company shut down (about 1999 if I remember correctly) or back in the 1950s.  That may explain the divergent opinions about the age of the item from different people..could date from those two years or many other years in the vicinity of those years.  Clevenger didn't date mark everything (or anything maybe).

Again, I don't know what bottle you are referring too since it isn't noted in your message.  Did you broach a question in another part of the forum?  Your's is the first message posted in this thread since I did one two years ago...

Bill

_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

(in reply to PATTY)
Post #: 18
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/25/2006 3:01:10 PM   
CALDIGR2

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline
Why in the world would the BLM support a bottle ID website when they are seriously anti-collecting? Just try to pick up a bottle, or even a shard of one, from BLM land. It will net you a quick trip to the hoosgow, followed by a larger than life fine.

_____________________________

Mike

Dig no privy before it's time.

(in reply to jfcutter)
Post #: 19
RE: Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information - 11/25/2006 3:24:46 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 4554
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

a tool for archaeologists (and collectors) a tool for archaeologists (and collectors)


Ever heard a "spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down"?
If the government does something for archaeologists it doesnt hurt anything if collectors benefit too. It also doesnt hurt that one arm of the government doesnt know what the others are doing.
The truth is anyone who digs bottles and studies them is an archaeologist, they just arent a directly paid archaeologist.

_____________________________

Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

(in reply to CALDIGR2)
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