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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> New to the Collection >> Odd seam lines..

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Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 2:34:26 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline I just got this in the mail. There was money in the paypal account so I decided to take a chance on a wicker covered jug. The first thing I saw when i unpacked it was the seam line ...oh well. I pulled the wicker off with some hope that there might be something interesting embossed..again no luck. It is nicely whittled. The odd thing is the mold lines..rather strange. Attachment (1) < Message edited by bostaurus -- 2/28/2011 2:38:14 PM > _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. Post #: 1

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 2:36:03 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline mold lines. The come up the side of the bottle (on the right), go around the neck below the lip, go up again (on the left) and then around the lip. Attachment (1) _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 2

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 2:36:52 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline The bottom has some initials... Attachment (1) _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 3

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 2:37:33 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline Another picture on the shelf. Attachment (1) _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 4

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 2:46:55 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline Is this made by the "press and blow" method where the top was made first then the rest of the bottle blown? When was that kind of machinery used? _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 5

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 4:15:48 PM    cowseatmaize Posts: 6467 Joined: 12/2/2004 From: Eastern Northwest West Central area of Mass Status: offline It looks like an early machine by Owens. I don't know when he started selling them or the rights overseas but it looks adapted to the European market. 1905-12? Yes, I'm guessing. _____________________________ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati Eric (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 6

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 4:21:13 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 11470 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline Could the RL be the volume size? _____________________________ FREE Online Medicine Guide - http://www.antiquemedicines.com/MedicineNexus/Nexus.htm Web Site - http://antiquemedicines.com Email : mknapp@antiquemedicines.com (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 7

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 5:18:32 PM    JOETHECROW Posts: 9807 Joined: 9/3/2005 From: Northwestern Pa. (Near scenic Lake Perfidy) Status: offline Nice looking bottle regardless Melinda... _____________________________ Joe ``````````````````````````````````` In the woods we return to reason and faith. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooTyuRd9zSg&feature=related (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 8

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 5:47:54 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline I don't know about the initials being the size...could be. It is an interesting bottle and from a distance it looks like that early dumpy ale I have always wanted to have in the collection. I figure as long as I keep it up high no one but me will know. _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to JOETHECROW) Post #: 9

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 2/28/2011 11:37:57 PM    RED Matthews Posts: 2394 Joined: 8/2/2008 Status: online Hello to all of you.  I am glad I picked up on his thread. It would need some closer observation for me to be sure of the process used to make it.  I just went back to the picture of the bottom, to see if I could detect any O-I shear mark.  I couldn't.  The location of the embossed "/ RL \" was created in a bottom plate with the cone shaped push-up established.. Looking at the finish seams three times I am still not sure of their path up and around the finish.  Machine forming processes seemed to start around 1890.  There were a few different ones developed.  There were also molds and neck forming pieces that made the finishes on some odd assemblies of neck ring and guide ring pieces around the blow and blow plunger.  Some finishes were actually machined into the top of the mold;  All of these change over technologies require hands on ****ysis.  The shape and form of the bottle looks quite foreign to me, but I realize the bottle was made before I got active in the industry variations.  It was not made press and blow.  It is definitely blow and blow.  This process depended on a small plunger to put the initial cavity form in the parison gob of the melted glass. This was retracted from the glass and air pressure blew the parison form.  This form had to be placed in the final blow mold and a blowhead supplied the air volume to do the final blow of the glass out to the bottles form.  My better half is ready to turn in so - I am going to have to leave and I will not be able to get back to this in the morning because I have to go to the doctors in the morning.   Thanks anyway for posting your interesting bottle.  RED Matthews _____________________________ http://www.bottlemysteries.com/welcome/ (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 10

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/1/2011 6:15:58 PM    RED Matthews Posts: 2394 Joined: 8/2/2008 Status: online ?????????  No one added any comment.  RED Martthews _____________________________ http://www.bottlemysteries.com/welcome/ (in reply to RED Matthews) Post #: 11

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/1/2011 8:08:41 PM    RED Matthews Posts: 2394 Joined: 8/2/2008 Status: online Hello bostarus,  Well since I didn't get any feedback on my dissertation, I guess I answered everyone's questions. I am interested in knowing more about the making assembly of the mold equipment so - I could buy it - or we could make the US postal people richer by sending it back and forth for me to look at it.  It would satisfy me if you could sketch out the bottle seam lines so I could be more sure of what is there.   Thanks for showing it.  It looks like a good bottle regardless of it's making.  RED Matthews _____________________________ http://www.bottlemysteries.com/welcome/ (in reply to RED Matthews) Post #: 12

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/1/2011 8:19:30 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline Red, I actually drew out a picture showing the lines and scanned it. I could not figure out how to get it into a form I could put here on the forum. Tomorrow I will try emailing it to you. _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to RED Matthews) Post #: 13

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/2/2011 6:33:03 AM    cowseatmaize Posts: 6467 Joined: 12/2/2004 From: Eastern Northwest West Central area of Mass Status: offline What format? If you want to email to me I'll put it on my web space and link it for you.  _____________________________ Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati Eric (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 14

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/2/2011 8:39:51 AM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline I think I have it figured out... red lines are the mold seams.. Attachment (1) _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to cowseatmaize) Post #: 15

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/2/2011 7:24:24 PM    dmagave   Posts: 90 Joined: 2/24/2008 Status: offline is the top horizontal seam the top of the mold and just the very lip tooled.i've seen 1 or 2 with it and was curious (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 16

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/2/2011 10:06:16 PM    bostaurus Posts: 2299 Joined: 2/17/2009 From: Madison, Wisconsin Status: offline The very top does not seem to be tooled. I will give it a better look in the sunlight tomorrow. _____________________________ Always looking for veterinary bottles, American and foreign. (in reply to dmagave) Post #: 17

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/3/2011 7:11:10 PM    RED Matthews Posts: 2394 Joined: 8/2/2008 Status: online Back again;  In the whole generations of ABM efforts to make finishes, the top sealing surfaces had to be ground on a lot of jars.  When they started using a neck-ring forming tool, there was a guide ring inside the neckring that made a smooth top for sealing.  So I didn't expect to see a seam there.  RED Mattews  _____________________________ http://www.bottlemysteries.com/welcome/ (in reply to bostaurus) Post #: 18

RE: Odd seam lines.. - 3/4/2011 5:48:25 PM    RED Matthews Posts: 2394 Joined: 8/2/2008 Status: online Hello again.  I have looked over your drawing and arrived at this conclusion.  The mold seam that you show would have been formed in the final blow mold.  The parison shape of the glass would have had a seam, but that seam would have reheated and disappeared in the stretching of the parison to the final blow mold surfaces. I have to come to the conclusion that the ABM was early but the seam lines almost indicate that the machine was of the Emhart I-S type.  I have a drawing sketch but I don't really know how to put it here.  The appearance of the bottles bottom with that big embossed push-up bottom makes me think it was not made on the Owens type of machine motions.  In the first place, a Blow and Blow bottle on the Emhart type of machine would be made with the parison shape inverted and the finish would be formed under the parison cavity.  On the Owens Type of machine the parison is made upright with the finish on the upside of the blank mold (the parison shaping mold).  They often shaped part of the finish in the top neck cavity of these molds.  I would have to go ding in some of my Owens files - but I assume the top sealing surface was formed with an inverted guide ring and a plunger through the center of it.  The hot molten metal (glass), was sucked up into the parison cavity with vacuum and then sheared off, on the bottom of this parison mold;  This shear off created a ring in the center of the glass bottle bottom, that shows the sweep of the shear blade on the finished bottle's glass botom.  This Owens cut off mark is sometimes called a pontil [Not-So].  The parison is transferred from the blank mold to the final blow mold by a holding arm where the blank mold opens the machine turns and the parison is than closed in the cavity of the final blow mold.  You can go on Bill Lindsey's SMA.org homepage and watch this machine do its stuff. Well - I know this doesn't help much, but I think it is a nice transition bottle and would be interested in it for that reason. RED Matthews _____________________________ http://www.bottlemysteries.com/welcome/ (in reply to RED Matthews) Post #: 19

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