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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> Pontil?

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Pontil? - 2/6/2006 8:41:07 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline O.K. folks I am listing this bottle on Ebay and need to know if you think it is improved pontil or not. I always thought kinda ,but not sure. Attachment (1) Post #: 1

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 8:41:39 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline Another pic Attachment (1) (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 2

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 8:42:05 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline Last pic Attachment (1) (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 3

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 9:14:41 PM    Oldtimer Posts: 726 Joined: 5/13/2004 From: Effingham NH. Where else? Status: offline I've seen this sort of bottom refered to as a "sand pontil" ...but it looks like a graphite pontil to me..? _____________________________ STOP THE CAR !! I think I see a cellarhole !!! (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 4

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 9:15:32 PM    Oldtimer Posts: 726 Joined: 5/13/2004 From: Effingham NH. Where else? Status: offline Also, a pic of the whole bottle & a close-up of the top would help us date the bottle... _____________________________ STOP THE CAR !! I think I see a cellarhole !!! (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 5

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 9:18:24 PM    CALDIGR2   Posts: 511 Joined: 6/20/2005 Status: offline YEP. The iron oxide residue has been cleaned away, or was lost due to soil conditions. Has the bottle been tumbled? Sometimes, with a little over zealous cleaning the black, or red, residue is polished off. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 6

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 9:24:36 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline Here is a pic. Has not been tumbled. Attachment (1) (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 7

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 9:43:12 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5129 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline Looks like a graphite pontil mark. _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 8

RE: Pontil? - 2/6/2006 10:29:57 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline Thanks Folks, I'll list as graphite pontil. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 9

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 10:01:57 AM    cowseatmaize Posts: 2135 Joined: 12/2/2004 From: Metro West, MA Status: offline I believe graphite is the wrong term though often used. It's usually referred as an iron pontil (IP) or bare iron pontil _____________________________ My 10¢ worth (inflation) Eric If you love what your doing it might be illegal, so watch your back. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 10

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 10:18:07 AM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline I have never sen it written down,but if it's orange rusted I 'll call it Iron. If it is black I'll call it Graphite. The very light hazy appearing type I call Sand . If I'm not sure I'll call them Improved as a cover all. I could be wrong. That's just me. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 11

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 10:39:58 AM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline I think to be most accurate Iron or Improved would be most correct, collectors use other terms to be more descript. Sand pontils were when the Rod was actually dipped in sand to make it easier to remove from the bottle. I thought I read somewhere Iron oxide was also used. Not always a bare Iron Rod. Can anyone help enlighten us? (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 12

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 11:33:33 AM    GuntherHess Posts: 5129 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline My understanding is that something needed to be used as a release agent to keep the rod from sticking (permanently) to the bottle. There were several different methods used including iron oxide(this can occur naturally on a bare iron rod), graphite,sand, and glass chips. Iron oxide leaves a reddish or brown residue, graphite leaves a gray or black mark, sand leaves a rough sandpaper like mark, and sand chips are small sharp bits of glass. These are just my observations from what I've seen and read. Let me know if I have it wrong. < Message edited by GuntherHess -- 2/7/2006 11:44:47 AM > _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 13

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 11:40:23 AM    CALDIGR2   Posts: 511 Joined: 6/20/2005 Status: offline The term we use out west is Improved Pontil. The removal of the tubular, or open, pontil mark via various means was an improvement in the bottle blowing and finishing process. I don't think that Graphite, Iron or other terms are incorrect, either. Those descriptions have been in use since the beginnings of bottle collecting. Mike (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 14

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 1:06:26 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline Kool, I think we are all on the same page. I 'll list this one Improved pontil. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 15

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 2:06:14 PM    capsoda Posts: 7869 Joined: 11/15/2005 From: Seminole,Alabama, USA Status: offline Matt is correct about the different materials used to keep the pontil from sticking. Pontils were also used bare. An improved pontil is a type of pontil rod that was supposed to make it easer to release the pontil from the bottle. Some had hatch marks some had dimples and so on. Simply put the standard iron pontil is the improved pontil. It was called that becauce it replaced the glass pontil. Graphite pontil? No such animal. The grey deposit is left by an iron pontil. The gray or black color comes from ferrous iron and the red comes from ferric iron. Check out the BLM site. Bill Lindsey explains it far better than I can and shows pics to boot. _____________________________ Warren Diggin down in Dixie, USA Work is for people who don't dig bottles President, Panhandle Cruisers http://www.panhandlecruisers.org/ (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 16

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 3:01:24 PM    Road Dog   Posts: 778 Joined: 6/9/2005 Status: offline It's all starting to come back to me now. Thanks Cap. It's been years since I read on the specifics of pontils. Thanks. (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 17

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 3:22:53 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5129 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline By Graphite, I didnt mean to imply that the rod was graphite. I meant that powdered graphite was used as a release agent. Its long been known as a high temperature lubricant. I think I read somewhere it was used in the glass blowing process. Maybe its just a myth, I'll try to do some research. _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 18

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 3:50:09 PM    capsoda Posts: 7869 Joined: 11/15/2005 From: Seminole,Alabama, USA Status: offline Hey Matt, Thats not what I meant. The graphite used on the end of a pontil as a release agent will brush off and not leave a residue. It will look like a fine sand pontil. It's still a favorite of glass blowers today. For those who didn't know, there is no such thing as a graphite pontil rod. _____________________________ Warren Diggin down in Dixie, USA Work is for people who don't dig bottles President, Panhandle Cruisers http://www.panhandlecruisers.org/ (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 19

RE: Pontil? - 2/7/2006 3:57:31 PM    walkingstick Posts: 311 Joined: 1/28/2006 From: World Wide (presently Bemidji, MN Status: offline Didn't they whittle them graphite rods down, wrap them in cedar and call them pencils? Just kidding. _____________________________ Wil Grolsch bottles ... oh yeah, I know them well. They are for bottling homebrew ... aren't they? Photographer, homebrewer and meade maker for barter purposes (in reply to Road Dog) Post #: 20

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