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The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

 
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The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD ENOUGH. - 11/15/2010 1:29:22 PM   
Steve/sewell


Posts: 4295
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		The great deceivers the Clevengers made this Washington/Taylor quart sized bottle to totally fool the public when bottle collecting began in ernst.Their goal was simple shear profit from forgery.However as usual they have left enough clues in their work to easily tell their fake version from the Dyottville made  which was originally manufactured in the mid 1840s right on up to 1850.Lets look at the neck area on the Clevenger bottle and an original.From the base of the neck the originals flow nicely towards the top of the bottle,in fact where the base of the neck begins it is a soft transition almost a 45 degree angle .Now looking at the Clevenger made version there is a sharp cut off point and the neck is very straight  where it transitions into the bottles shoulders.It almost looks like  someone drove a peg into the bottle.Here are the two necks side by side.When presented this way it is easy to see the difference between the two. 






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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 11/15/2010 1:37:21 PM   
Steve/sewell


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Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		The next area to look at is the embossing and the picture relief of General Taylor on the this side of the bottle.On the original version the embossing is sharp and the picture relief is strong where as on the Clevenger version the opposite is true as weak  clarity and embossing make it easy to tell the two apart.On the Washington side of the bottle the bust of Washington has strong deep lines in the impression and  clothing wrinkles can be seen in his bust at his collar and shoulders.Washingtos hair is well defined also and a pony tail tie is easily seen.The opposite again is true on the Clevenger made version as the relief of Washingtons facial lines is weak at best and the clothed area on the base of the bust is wrinkle free and quite smooth.Washingtons hair is also much less defined.

The Embossing is the same on each bottle.THE FATHER OF HIS COUNTRY" is embossed in an arch above the bust of General George Washington on one side of the flask, "GEN TAYLOR NEVER SURRENDERS" appears in an arch above the bust of General Taylor on the other side along with "DYOTTVILLE GLASSWORKS PHILADA" embossed in smaller font in an arch above Gen Taylor Never Surrenders.Again on the original version the embossing is sharp and well defined and on the Clevenger made it is very weak.The mold on the original usually shows plenty of whittle marks through out where as on the Clevenger version there is almost a pebbly texture to the glass.




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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 11/15/2010 1:38:38 PM   
Steve/sewell


Posts: 4295
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		The area on the bottoms of each bottle look very similar in fact it is hard to tell the original from the fake but as always the case the Clevengers left enough clues so there are ways also on the base to tell them apart.The pontil marks outer diameter is usually a very smooth depression.The rough pontil mark which is inside of this depressed area looks to be of the time period.On the original versions the outer ring of the pontil mark is very similar ion size to the Clevenger version but is not as deep and is more concave in nature.The rough pontil mark left is very similar to the Clevenger made version .

Lastly one other area when comparing the two is the elliptical relief area which houses the busts and the embossing on each bottle.On the originals the bottom of the ellipse comes to a nice gradual curve where it nears its lowest point on on each side of the bottle.On the Clevenger made versions this same area is flatter and does not curve as graciously as it does on the original.Here are the two bottles side by side.




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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 11/15/2010 1:43:23 PM   
Steve/sewell


Posts: 4295
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		I hope this post helps someone one day who is contemplating purchasing one of these as being able to identify the imposter Clevenger version
from the Dyottville made originals.Lets call these Clevenger made versions what they really are KNOCK OFFS and nothing more.The Clevenger brothers did produce some nice glass however you cant tell me otherwise that a lot of their inventory was made to be deceptive and very profitable in doing so.

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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 11/20/2010 8:52:37 AM   
Steve/sewell


Posts: 4295
Joined: 1/23/2010
Status: offline 		Apparently this post didnt help someone.Its ashamed if it was a couple of hundred dollars it wouldnt be so bad but a grand ,even for a person that can generally afford it this has to sting a little

http://cgi.ebay.com/WASHINGTON-TAYLOR-Historical-Flask-BLUE-Color-Pint-/280589791688?pt=Folk_Art&hash=item41547471c8I

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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 2/28/2011 8:07:23 AM   
j.w.dyott

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/28/2011
Status: offline 		Thanks very much for the info. It's very helpful. I'll definitely save it.

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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 2/28/2011 8:27:49 AM   
cowseatmaize


Posts: 6472
Joined: 12/2/2004
From: Eastern Northwest West Central area of Mass
Status: offline 		Welcome to the forum.
Ok, if I don't someone will. Any relation to T.W. Dyott?



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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 2/28/2011 12:56:38 PM   
j.w.dyott

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/28/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, he was my great great grandfather or maybe great great great grandfather. I always forget how many greats are in there. I have the same middle name that he did. I've been trying to collect some of the bottles to pass down eventually, so I was really excited to find this posting. Others I've seen haven't explained the differences so clearly.

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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 3/1/2011 8:16:43 AM   
saratogadriver

 

Posts: 622
Joined: 9/10/2009
Status: offline 		Ok, now that's just cool. Your ancestor is SO critical to any understanding of early medicines and flasks in the US. Are you aware that there is a book by Kenneth Wilson out there entitled "Bottles, Flasks and Dr. Dyott"? If not, it should be a must read for you I would think.

Welcome to the forums.

Jim G




quote:

ORIGINAL: j.w.dyott

Yeah, he was my great great grandfather or maybe great great great grandfather. I always forget how many greats are in there. I have the same middle name that he did. I've been trying to collect some of the bottles to pass down eventually, so I was really excited to find this posting. Others I've seen haven't explained the differences so clearly.


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Post #: 9
RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 3/1/2011 11:04:18 AM   
j.w.dyott

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/28/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, I own a copy of it. It's really interesting.

Jeff

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RE: The Clevenger made GI-37, good fake, BUT NOT GOOD E... - 3/1/2011 10:34:20 PM   
JOETHECROW


Posts: 9807
Joined: 9/3/2005
From: Northwestern Pa. (Near scenic Lake Perfidy)
Status: offline
quote:

j.w.dyott

Yeah, he was my great great grandfather or maybe great great great grandfather.



Welcome Jeff!
What an amazing distinction,....Like Jim said,..."That's just cool!" Glad to have you on here and good luck in your search for info and glass...Really!.... j.w. dyott....Go figure.


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