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Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle

 
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Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 7/20/2003 7:41:24 AM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		First, I am not an avid bottle collector so please excuse any omissions or mistakes I make here. I just got a bottle that has UNION and a shield with clasp hands and the Wm Frank & Sons name on one side, a flag and a cannon on the other. The mold mark stops below the crown. It has quite a few bubbles. The mold mark does not go thru the pontil on the bottom. Has this bottle been reproduced and how can I tell if mine is old. It just does not seem to have a good patina. Also, what might the value be if it is authentic. I have a wax seal Wm Frank quart canning jar and it seems to be of better quality in the glass. Any comments would be appreciated.
Post #: 1
RE: Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 7/20/2003 11:39:59 AM   
Guest
 sounds like you have a union flask of some sort. flasks can be tricky to identify.there were so many variations made as well as reproductions . i find it odd that you have a wax sealer with the same name on it. we need a picture of the flask.including a shot of the bottom.how did you aquire these pieces? could wm frank be a local merchant? call a local library historian. send a photo and we will see what we can come up with.
diggerjeff

(in reply to fisherman)
  Post #: 2
RE: Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 7/21/2003 1:20:00 PM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		Thanks for the reply diggerjeff. I will post a photo of one side of the bottle. I don' t have a good digital camera so it make not be the best. If necessary, I can probably borrow a better camera. You can see the UNION. The clasp hands are below that in the shield. They are difficult to make out on the bottle and impossible in the pic. The Frank & Sons is at the bottom of the shield and it, too, is difficult to read. The mark on the bottom which I think is a pontil mark is very similar to the one on the wax seal jar although the jar has what would appear to be an X in it. This concerned me, because the one on the bottle looked too good. Wm Frank & Sons was a Pittsburgh company and that appears on both the jar and the bottle as PITTs. I know the jar is old, just don' t know about the bottle.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 3
RE: Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 7/21/2003 2:00:28 PM   
Guest
 Hello. The following information on your bottle is from " American Bottles and Flasks and Their Ancestry" by McKearin and Wilson.

First of all, even without a photo, I am 99.9999% certain that your flask is genuine. While the union/clasped hands design has been reproduced, they only depict the general design and do not include the detail of individual glass works' names, ie. William Frank and Sons.

William Frank began operating a wholesale and retail mercantile business around 1846, and built a glass works with Ephraim Wormser in 1858. It was known as the Frankstown Glass Works, and was located about four miles east of downtown Pittsburgh PA. The actual name of the firm was Wm Frank & Co., but was changed to Wm. Frank & Sons in 1866. The factory burned down in 1874 and was not rebuilt, so your flask was made before this time. Hopkins' s " Atlas of Pittsburgh" , 1872, mentions the company as makers of vials, bottles, and demijohns....a letterhead from the firm also mentions fruit jars.

Your flask is listed as either the quart size GXII-38 (Group twelve, number 38), or the pint size GXII-39. Both of these varieties have another variation, but I doubt that yours is the GXII-38a because it is unknown in aqua. In any event, all variations of this flask are rated as comparatively scarce, which translates to 75-150 known specimens as of 1978.

A smooth base example of the aqua pint sold for $88 in 1990. ( The Auction Price Report by William Brown) The bottle is not known to have a pontil, but I have occasionally seen a bottle listed as a smooth base occur with a pontil, which adds a little to its value. It' s been thirteen years since that example sold, so the value may have increased slightly, to say, $100? Any other estimates from out there? I only applied a small increase because there are several similar flasks out there, and the aqua flasks are not as popular as the more colorful examples. Lots of bubbles and crude glass almost always increase a bottles value. You mentioned a lack of patina, but that is actually good for bottles. Any stain detracts from the value.

Your fruit jar is listed in The Red Book #8 with a value of $15-20...a diamond mark adds about $5.

If you get a chance, send us some pictures. : )

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  Post #: 4
RE: Wm Frank & Sons flask - 7/23/2003 3:03:08 PM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		Here are some photos of the Frank & Sons flask as well as the wax seal jar. The first is the bottom of the Frank & Sons jar showing the name and pontil mark.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5
RE: Wm Frank & Sons flask - 7/23/2003 3:06:10 PM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		This pic is the front of the flask with the UNION, clasped hands, shield, and Wm Frank & Sons name although the name is not clear enough to see in the pic.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 6
RE: Wm Frank & Sons flask - 7/23/2003 3:08:19 PM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		This pic is the back of the flask with the flag and cannon.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 7
RE: Wm Frank & Sons flask - 7/23/2003 3:10:42 PM   
fisherman

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 7/19/2003
Status: offline 		This pic is the bottom of the flask showing the pontil mark.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 8
RE: Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 7/24/2003 9:02:49 PM   
Harry Pristis

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 7/24/2003
From: Northcentral Florida
Status: offline 		Interesting flask, however, the mark on the bottom is not a pontil scar. It appears to me to be mold mark from a post-bottom mold. According to Cecil Munsey,

" The post bottom mold gets its name from the design of the bottom plate. The plate is made like a post and extends up to the part of the mold that forms the body of the bottle.

" The seams on the bottle formed in this type of mold run down the sides and in a circle around the bottom. The significant seam is the circular one on the bottom of the bottle.

" The post bottom may be used in conjunction with other mold types, i.e., two-piece, three-piece, and so forth.

" In glassblowing the main advantage to using the post-bottom mold lies in the fact that because the base plate extends upward into the other pieces of the mold that form the body, the mold can never be closed incorrectly--it is self-centering."

Hope this helps.
-------------------------Harry Pristis

_____________________________

______________________________________________
Visit The Demijohn Page at:
http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html

(in reply to fisherman)
Post #: 9
RE: Wm Frank & Sons whiskey bottle - 9/11/2003 9:41:26 PM   
Wayne W. Bastin

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 9/11/2003
Status: offline 		Hi Fisherman

Do you have any old creamer top milk bottles.

Thanks Blackkey[color=#clear
quote:

ORIGINAL: fisherman

First, I am not an avid bottle collector so please excuse any omissions or mistakes I make here. I just got a bottle that has UNION and a shield with clasp hands and the Wm Frank & Sons name on one side, a flag and a cannon on the other. The mold mark stops below the crown. It has quite a few bubbles. The mold mark does not go thru the pontil on the bottom. Has this bottle been reproduced and how can I tell if mine is old. It just does not seem to have a good patina. Also, what might the value be if it is authentic. I have a wax seal Wm Frank quart canning jar and it seems to be of better quality in the glass. Any comments would be appreciated.

(in reply to fisherman)
Post #: 10
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