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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Cleaning and Repairing >> further details on rust cleaning options

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further details on rust cleaning options - 5/17/2004 6:00:24 AM    leebran20 Posts: 84 Joined: 2/18/2004 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline I'm posting this at Harry P's suggestion, after I emailed him directly about a response he gave to I believe the "lunchtime finds" thread -- where the author wanted to know about how to take off a rusty cap and Harry suggested oxalic acid, aka wood bleach -- because he thought my questions were valid and that I may get more than just an answer from him by trying. So here goes and thanks in advance for any responses, Brandon Message: Hello Harry: I'm fearful of using muriatic acid so I use an acid replacement, which as you probably know doesn't work very well with heavily rusted bottles, like a good one I'm working on right now that I found yesterday. So I'm very interested in hearing a little more on oxalic acid, or wood bleach, as it sounds like a good alternative for me. Can you advise me on a couple things: 1. Do I do as I do with the replacement and others do with muriatic and other acids: Put bottle in a bucket with small amount of liquid basically covering bucket's bottom and then cover the bucket? 2. I still plan to use my gloves and work in open air, but when you say generally less dangerous with oxalic acid compared to the other types, what do you specifically mean? Thank you very much, Brandon Lee Post #: 1

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/17/2004 8:29:11 AM    IRISH   Posts: 1238 Joined: 11/23/2002 From: cockatoo Australia Status: offline Brandon, Here is a couple of MSDS for Oxalic Acid, the first one is for the pure chemical. http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm The second one is the solution (what you are most likely to have). https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/91292.htm Hope this is the info you where after , it answers the danger and safety precautions you need to know about any chemical before handling it. Edit= thought I'd better mention that MSD sheets will make Water sound as dangerous as Sarin, they have all worst possible effects etc. Oxalic Acid is safe to use if you follow the recommended safety precautions in those sheets. < Message edited by IRISH -- 5/17/2004 8:35:28 AM > (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 2

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/17/2004 11:24:07 AM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Goodness! These hazard sheets make oxalic acic sound like the chemical-from-hell! It's not, of course. As Irish points out, these are worst-possible effects, mainly for industrial settings. Whether you are using drain-cleaner, or laundry bleach, or acetone, or mineral spirits, or oxalic acid, common-sense must prevail. Don't drink it, don't aspirate it, don't get it in your eyes, mininize skin contact, don't throw it in a fire, don't mix it with other chemicals. "Clean Air Act: This material does not contain any hazardous air pollutants. This material does not contain any Class 1 Ozone depletors. This material does not contain any Class 2 Ozone depletors. Clean Water Act: None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Hazardous Substances under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Priority Pollutants under the CWA. None of the chemicals in this product are listed as Toxic Pollutants under the CWA. OSHA: None of the chemicals in this product are considered highly hazardous by OSHA." Evaporation is "negligible" (fumes), and there is no known carcinogenic effect. Oxalic acid comes as crystals, like coarse table-salt. You have to mix the crystals with hot water (you can let it cool somewhat before immersing the bottle, OR you can warm the bottle gradually and uniformly in tap-water -- glass and acid solution should be reasonably close to the same temperature to avoid thermal shock to the glass). The package instructions provide a dilution formula for bleaching wood. I have never used the full-strength mixture. There is no magic dilution, as far as I can tell; the stronger the solution, the more aggressive the action on the iron. I estimate about a quarter of the suggested dilution works just fine on iron oxides. Basically, I just use a half-dollop in a plastic container full of hot water, then stir. (I don't have any rubber gloves for this purpose.) I do this indoors at my fiberglass laundry sink. As the solution comes to room temperature, some oxalic acid and iron precipitate out to the bottom of the container. Remove the glass, rinse with water, brush off any clinging debris. It works for me on those rare occasions when I need to remove iron oxides. ----------------Harry Pristis < Message edited by Harry Pristis -- 5/17/2004 3:15:48 PM > _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 3

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/17/2004 6:15:29 PM    leebran20 Posts: 84 Joined: 2/18/2004 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline thanks very much for the detailed responses, guys. I'm gonna buy some today because I don't think even a week's worth of sitting in the acid replacement will get rid of the rust on the milk I have resting in it right now. As an aside, the milk is a very rare one from a tiny dairy in Manoa Valley in Honolulu. My partner and I are almost finished with a very productive dump in this valley, and last Friday we found in it three pints from this dairy. They are in the several-hundreds-of-dollars range, and I found one that's abraided and covered with rust ... while my buddy pulled out not only a mint one of that variation, but another mint one of a different variation. It was a great day and I'm very excited to see how my bottle cleans up. I'll post pics soon as I can, as I just got my Photoshop software coincidentally delivered to me about 15 minutes ago. Thanks again, Brandon (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 4

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/17/2004 6:47:37 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline You're welcome, Brandon. I assume these milk bottles are not painted. I would not put anything painted in the oxalic acid solution for fear of bleaching the paint. Let us know here how it works for you. ---------------Harry Pristis _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 5

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/18/2004 11:31:45 AM    woody   Posts: 1660 Joined: 10/29/2002 From: Gilmanton, New Hampshire Status: online There is a product called "Iron Out" that is safe to use for removing rust stains out of bottles. It comes in a powder and you mix it with water and let the bottle soak in it. It's used in the laundry to whiten rust colored clothing and can be used to remove rust stains from toilets and sinks. It dissolves the rust and is safer to use than most products on the market. It can be had at most hardware stores and supermarkets. http://www.ironout.com/ < Message edited by woody -- 5/18/2004 11:38:17 AM > _____________________________ Woody (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 6

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 5/19/2004 10:25:53 PM    leebran20 Posts: 84 Joined: 2/18/2004 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline thanks woody, for the other option. And yes, Harry, the bottles are definitely not painted but embossed. '20s milks. You know, I've only been back into digging for the last three years but this is definitely a strange dump. The way we found it was there was a whole hutch sticking out of the ground on top after a huge rain. We, of course, began digging, but the trash lower was predominantly newer, even going all the way to like the '70s I would guesstimate. But every so often, there are some older goodies down lower too (it goes about three feet down). Mixed in among the ACL sodas and even newer stuff have been a embossed bimal milk, a broken hutch top and several bimal medicines, a glass fishing float and then in the last two times we've gone, eight embossed milks. Hard to figure out, but still a ton of fun. Talk soon guys, and will post the pics. Actually looked at the bottle today after about 5 days in the replacement, and it's not doing too bad. But got the powerful stuff today and will get to work asap. Brandon (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 7

RE: further details on rust cleaning options - 7/14/2004 1:51:44 AM    leebran20 Posts: 84 Joined: 2/18/2004 From: Honolulu, Hawaii Status: offline It's taken me a while to follow up on this. Shame on me. Because of work -- and a day each week to dig:) -- I still haven't installed and become familiar with my Photoshop so I can crop my own pics. Remember I got a Mac and that free software Roger mentions won't do the trick for for me. And I don't want to tire him out by posting a bunch of them in large. I will get on it soon. But I just wanted to particularly let Harry, Woody and Irish know that I decided to stick with the acid "replacement." I went and bought some muriatic, but returned it after some thought. And to all of you out there who are concerned about cleaning options -- and there are a ton as the many threads attest to -- I can now firmly say that the acid replacement works really well, and it's tons safer (you can have it touch your skin and not have to worry about pain and just wash off reasonably quickly with water; believe me, I've had it happen.) Maybe not as strong as true muriatic, but 24 hours still does the trick, even with heavily rusted bottles. I was just not using the right amount and technique at first. I've since become good at it: Just put about an inch deep of the replacement in the bottom of a bucket, cover it securely and then let the fumes go to work. The fumes are the real key, not the liquid of the acid itself. I simply put too much in in the past. BTW, as I initially mentioned in starting this thread, my partner and I found three valuable milks from the same small dairy -- he and I each finding one of one certain variation, and then he also finding a different and even harder one. The one I found wasn't nearly as nice as the two of his -- it's case worn and has a sliver chip off the "T" in One Pint -- but it was the one coated with rust that I still wanted to take care of well and clean -- which I did with the replacement. Well the story has since continued, as my partner, unlike myself, doesn't collect milks, and being the good guy that he is, he gave me the harder variation so I could have the pair. That was great for me already, but I also was fortunate enough just about a week and a half ago to find another near-mint version of the bottle I originally found in poorer condition just under two months back; trust me they are hard even though we've been lucky with them lately; in my three years back in the hobby I had never seen one in person until our finds. So to return a favor to my partner, I gave him that first one I found to sell on eBay since he's a dealer and also fixing up his kitchen. We figured he might get $200 for it. Right now, the bottle is currently at $430 with 2 days and some hours left to go. Since I don't want to post any pics here yet, you can check it out at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10906&item=6107500618&rd=1 Thanks for the suggestions anyway guys. I definitely helped me learn a little bit and at least provided options. Will hopefully post pics of our good finds in the near future. Aloha. _____________________________ Brandon "In Mud We Must" (in reply to leebran20) Post #: 8

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