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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label instead of paper?

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i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label ins... - 6/5/2008 10:55:27 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline the bottle has 3 seams from top to bottom.  the label is definitely hand painted animal hide.  it has a very faded picture of a ship with 2 sailing masts from what i can tell and says whiskey.  above and below where it says whiskey it is worn pretty bad to where u can see some glass thru the animal hide.  the glass is a dark amber color.  i have seen bottles that resemble it some what in old roman documenturies, but i believe the bottle to be english due the english word whiskey being on the label. the bottle doesnt have any markings at all by a manufacturer or artist any where on the bottle or cork.  i inherited the bottle from my grandfather when he died plus many other old things.  i asked family members about the bottle including my grandmother and no 1 has any idea of where he got it other than a bar bet.  i hope it turns out to be a unique bottle cuz i dig privey's alot and quite a collection but nothing like this.  i can also tell you who ever used the bottle the most was left handed cuz his/her's hand markings are worn into the animal hideor they just really enjoyed the picture of the ship.  i hope its very old then i would have something to compete with a 12,000 year old indian mace i dug up in my old backyard!!!!!!!!!  needless to say i ended up digging the entire yard up  i plan on adding to this post later from my newest dig at my new house where i have found an unbelieveable amount of bottles and porcelin spirit jugs 3' in the ground about 8' from the back door and followed em right to the original privey that was long torn down  i hope ne1 has helpfull information and i'll try to post more pictures if needed. Attachment (1) Post #: 1

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/5/2008 10:59:48 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline clearly the bottom of the bottle Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 2

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/5/2008 11:01:33 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline better shot of cork and bottle top Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 3

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/5/2008 11:13:29 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline best picture i could get of the ship Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 4

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/5/2008 11:25:46 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline  i hope this pic is better than the last for the ship i used a different type of light Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 5

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/5/2008 11:58:53 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5161 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline how can you tell the label is vellum? It looks like an imported liqueur of some sort. < Message edited by GuntherHess -- 6/6/2008 12:02:53 AM > _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 6

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 3:25:36 AM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline well GuntherHess if i could get some descent pictures of the label under a magnifying glass u can see the skin pores peppering the entire label giving the paper a texture or grain that is extremely different from pressed papers. (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 7

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 5:05:20 PM    glass man Posts: 1838 Joined: 1/30/2008 From: GEORGIA Status: offline For reason it does't appear that old to me ,but what do I know. Where does the seem end on the bottle? THE base is smooth based so it ain't ancient.Looks like a bottle put out at a Italian or Mexican reasteraunt for decoration. Don't let me put you on a bummer as I have no idea what it is and just am given my half-baked knowledge.You know what they say every one has a butthole and I have just showed mine, I will be very enlightend to see what it is![the bottle not my butthole,you perves] GOD BLESS! I know I have been enough help to have kept my mouth shut! Well good luck![on the bottle and not my buttock. CAN YOU SHOW IT IN A BETTER LIGHT ,it is so dark I can tell littile about the bottle because it is so dark. .Make the bottke closer on the en-mbossing and embossing lighter so it can be seen and is  there a date showing when it was bottled.does the bottle the have a pontil mark.or anything on the bottles. < Message edited by glass man -- 6/6/2008 5:22:47 PM > _____________________________ JESUS said"COME TO THE WATER,STAND BY MY SIDE. I KNOW YOU ARE THIRSTY;YOU WON'T BE DENIED. I FELT EVERY TEARDROP WHEN IN DARKNESS YOU CRIED,SO I STROVE TO REMIND YOU FOR THOSE TEARS I DIED. "children of the day" (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 8

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 5:06:45 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline GuntherHess is this picture more sufficent in proving the label is animal hide?  took some doings to get this picture as descent as it is with the camera and magnifying glass that i have.  the skin pores are pretty noticible i think.  hope u enjoy this pic took me hours to get right.  Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 9

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 5:43:52 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline glass man there are many seams running horizontal across this bottle.  seems as though it is a jisaw puzzle made by a top notch craftsman.  here is a photo showing 1 of the vertical seams and showing 2 horizontal seams for the base of the bottle.  i dont know this bottle was exactly made.  but it does resemble early roman whiskey bottles and ale mugs by the diamond and round reliefs on the octagonal facets.  i know in the documentery i watched on roman glass making that they failed in the making of the whiskey bottles frequently and would then cut the top off the bottles and attach handles for their ale mugs.  it was prolly a blessing to the pubs they failed so frequent due to consentual crimes like fist fighting being legal and im sure an astonishing amount of mugs was broken each year.  good for the glass industry i guess. Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 10

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 6:22:27 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5161 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline quote: is this picture more sufficent in proving the label is animal hide? Doesnt really prove anything to me since I dont know what an animal skin bottle label should look like. I never said the label was or was not any particular material. When you say Roman do you actually mean the Roman Empire? As in ancient? _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 11

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 6:26:52 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline this could be a possible pontil mark glass man Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 12

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:07:37 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline here is a couple of pictures showing the color in sunlight by the lake i just took when the sun came out.  and to anwser your question glass man no there is absolutely no numbers or letters or emblems on the bottle itself.  there may have been on the label at 1 point in time but it is faded pretty bad and is quite worn from use and handeling. Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 13

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:09:09 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline another picture of showing embossing up close in more light Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 14

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:11:53 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline and heres another pic of the embossing up close in more light of the base Attachment (1) (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 15

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:17:19 PM    woody   Posts: 1680 Joined: 10/29/2002 From: Gilmanton, New Hampshire Status: online Looks like leather, to me. _____________________________ Woody (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 16

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:38:02 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline yes i mean the roman empire as in ancient.  it seems to be the only bottles i can find that some what resembles this bottle making style and diamond shapes on facets and color.  i think it would be proposterous myself for it to be an ancient bottle.  but i did dig up a 12,000 year old indian mace that was identified by the head archealogist of illinois in my old backyard.  not to mention my grandfather was quite the collector of bottles. especially flasks and gin bottles.  and i was just trying to show a picture close up of the label just for sake of arguement.  i dont know sure fire myself that it is animal hide but i have never seen a milled paper that shows pores and skin like texture.  milled or pressed paper if it has a texture or grain is systematic on the paper;  because the texture or grain is pressed into the paper from the rollers its ran through.  im not trying say that it isnt possible that some of the first rollers made for paper mills werent exactly smooth.  but doubtfully made skin like textures or grain on the paper. < Message edited by teretz309 -- 6/6/2008 7:47:22 PM > (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 17

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:48:38 PM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline thanks woody would i couldnt agree more (in reply to woody) Post #: 18

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/6/2008 7:56:46 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5161 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline Take a look at this web site. It might help you determine the age of your bottle. It also has a section that talks about pontil marks. http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to teretz309) Post #: 19

RE: i inherited a bottle with animal hide for the label... - 6/7/2008 1:47:19 AM    teretz309   Posts: 25 Joined: 6/5/2008 From: illinois Status: offline thanks for the web link GuntherHess it is helping me notice more subtle variations in the bottle.  im gonna share some facts with ya about the bottle i never noticed before and also have a theory on how it could have been made.  i have found that the bottle has a applied finish since the vertical seams on it are different from the bodys vertical seams.  also the finish has horizontal bubbles all the way through the body down to the base.  i used a magnifying glass and my gemology microscope to notice this in the very small bubbles that its full of.  i also realized that the body of the bottle has 3 distinct seams from base to the bottom of the finish equally spaced from each other.  im no bottle making expert but if the bottle was molded in a traditional method by either a machine or hand blown process then there would 2 distinct seams opposite each other which in this case there isnt.  so that leads me to believe that the parison was hand blown into a 4 piece mold possibly made of limestone or some other type of easily workable stone such as porcelin in a 3 piece ice-cream cone shaped mold and was closed together around the 4th piece of the mold forming the base with its seam.  then used a metal, stone or wet wood band attached to most likely a metal, stone or wet wood rod which would have been used by the mold boy.  i cant picture a much different type of primitive device for the fast moving process.  to further support that it is hand blown 3 of the embossed diamonds on the facets at the base are nearly flat and rounded instead of raised and well defined points like the rest of them.  i can only assume from what i read on the link you have provided that if the bottle was machine blown that those would have filled the mold completely.  due to the extreme pressure used in the process of machine made bottles verses a mans lungs.  also in theory the use of more than 2 mold pieces could possibly explain the older process of dipping the bottles to remove seams.  i also tried using a short wave uv light on the labelto see if it had any cool effect and found that the spots of the hide where the paint has worn off luminess yellow.  which is common in calcium rich minerals.  not to mention i could see the full picture of the ship alot better though it does not luminess.  sorry for being so long winded in this post but if it will help in the determining the time period in which it could have came from.  i dont want to leave anything out.  i think i might study up on the properties of vellum and the inks and paints used on it.  hopefully that will help determing the age a little better. (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 20

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