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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> RE: dug Madonna

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RE: dug Madonna - 7/27/2007 9:03:58 AM    zanes_antiques Posts: 2027 Joined: 9/3/2006 From: Steubenville, Ohio Status: offline More Mexican than a lowrider.....I am rolling on the floor. I agree that the glass looks too bubbly and I can't see any wear on the base from the photos but if it's dug then it's the exception to the rules. _____________________________ I buy, sell, barter, and beg....Zane (in reply to cowseatmaize) Post #: 21

RE: dug Madonna - 7/28/2007 8:00:05 AM    GuntherHess Posts: 5160 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline Think I see on on fleabay???? http://cgi.ebay.com/BOLBOT-BLUE-BOTTLE-PRAYING-LADY-BLOWNED_W0QQitemZ320140517101QQihZ011QQcategoryZ895QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to zanes_antiques) Post #: 22

RE: dug Madonna - 7/29/2007 11:06:55 AM    druggistnut Posts: 370 Joined: 1/7/2006 From: Otisville, Michigan Status: offline I was waiting for the thing to soak in acid for a couple days before taking "clean" pics of it. A lot of good, thought provoking insight, you guys. Thanks. I'm not 100% convinced on this one yet, and here is why. Kent makes a very good point on the handle. It does appear to be pulled UP. One strike. It can't be 1960's though, and I will address that. Spencer and I were thinking on the same line, as far as the solid rod appearing pontil, attributed to a European/English origin. Anything can be made to appear to be anything else, esp. when someone is trying to capitalize on known successes. Matt also brings up the "solid pontil mark" and it not being early.Strike two. The item on eBay IS similar, Matt, with subtle differences, though. The handle and robe are different and the "pontil" mark definitely has a different look. Zane tosses out the improved pontiled hinge mold, which has always confused me. I have a hard time categorizing those, as I just don't see as much old stuff as you guys south and east of me. The base wear is being addressed shortly. Doug almost killed me with the Low Rider comment.  :>)  But, he also has a valid point regarding the handle. What was the purpose of it? I think he is right, it just appealed to the guy who made it. Eric and Rick brought points about American made Madonnas, which I have seen, too. That is a big reason I had trouble with this. It LOOKS more like those American made bottles than anything else, until I consider all the points you guys brought up. This was dug in a 1890's-1930's dump. I get rare late throws and never see anything past embossed milks/ Art Deco style sodas. The age was right for American made. The blue color is right. The size, the handle, the gazillion bubbles (one of you commented on that), the crappy pontil mark, the lack of sharp relief in the features on the glass, and the very nonexistant base wear make me say it is not American made. So where does that leave us? When did this type of work start showing up out of Mexico? Is it a predecessor to the "Naval Boarding Weapons" we are seeing now on eBay?  I mean, was it meant to fool people who wanted to believe it was authentic? If anyone has an idea where these were blown (is there an area in Mexico that is blowing glass like the "Boarding Weapons?"), I'd like to know. I'm including a few more pics, which make the pontil mark easier to see. Thanks for all the great input, everyone. I thinks it is important that we don't just "accept" what has been put to print or passed on for years. There is a lot of knowledge in each of you, but sometimes that knowledge can be nudged aside by some good "hunches," too. Bill Attachment (1) (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 23

RE: dug Madonna - 7/29/2007 11:08:27 AM    druggistnut Posts: 370 Joined: 1/7/2006 From: Otisville, Michigan Status: offline another view Attachment (1) _____________________________ Michigan drugstore bottles/dose glasses, jugs, etc... Any paper from Mich drugstores, pre 1900. Mich. blob beers/sodas, hutches. Anything unusual from Michigan, i.e., paper from bottlers, etc... Buy or trade President-Flint, Michigan FOHBC Club (in reply to druggistnut) Post #: 24

RE: dug Madonna - 7/29/2007 11:10:00 AM    druggistnut Posts: 370 Joined: 1/7/2006 From: Otisville, Michigan Status: offline another Attachment (1) (in reply to druggistnut) Post #: 25

RE: dug Madonna - 7/29/2007 11:11:10 AM    druggistnut Posts: 370 Joined: 1/7/2006 From: Otisville, Michigan Status: offline and the last Attachment (1) (in reply to druggistnut) Post #: 26

RE: dug Madonna - 7/29/2007 2:38:28 PM    capsoda Posts: 7923 Joined: 11/15/2005 From: Seminole,Alabama, USA Status: online Nice find. I would say European very late 1800s. That type of pontil can be caused by twisting off a cooling glass pontil rod and it looks refired which is not done in Mexico. Another reason I'd say not Mexican is that it is the Blessed Madonna and poor workmanship on something the Mexicans (being a mostly Catholic country) consider sacred probably wouldn't be put up with. It should be clean, clear and the relief should  perfect like the bim one they still make and sell down there today. As far as base wear, the Blessed Madonna sits on a special doyley. The handle looks to be a coffee cup type of affair so it was probably for pouring. The bottle probably held holy water or blessed oil. I'd say you dug a beautiful bottle. < Message edited by capsoda -- 7/29/2007 3:00:46 PM > _____________________________ Warren Diggin down in Dixie, USA Work is for people who don't dig bottles President, Panhandle Cruisers http://www.panhandlecruisers.org/ (in reply to druggistnut) Post #: 27

RE: dug Madonna - 7/30/2007 3:44:56 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5160 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline The context in which something is dug holds a lot of weight. If you can say it was dug in a basically undisturbed dump dating no later than the 30s then the odds are it is at least that old. _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to capsoda) Post #: 28

RE: dug Madonna - 7/30/2007 4:26:35 PM    cowseatmaize Posts: 2135 Joined: 12/2/2004 From: Metro West, MA Status: offline quote: and the very nonexistant base wear make me say i Here again with the base wear? If it was made 800BC and tossed, then dug you won't have any! Base wear is NOT the tell all sign people tend to make it out to be. It only means it was slid across a surface repeatedly over a long period of time. That or faked with sandpaper. I hope we can all agree on this and more importantly, remember it. I wonder how many NICE bottles were left at yard sales and such just because there was no base wear? Something to think about. _____________________________ My 10¢ worth (inflation) Eric If you love what your doing it might be illegal, so watch your back. (in reply to GuntherHess) Post #: 29

RE: dug Madonna - 7/30/2007 5:45:50 PM    sweetrelease   Posts: 660 Joined: 7/20/2006 From: hammonton ,nj Status: offline eric thats a good point i will remember that . i never really looked for base wear but was told many times to lookoh well i'll just keep looking for the "old" glass thanks ,matt (in reply to cowseatmaize) Post #: 30

RE: dug Madonna - 7/30/2007 6:03:03 PM    zanes_antiques Posts: 2027 Joined: 9/3/2006 From: Steubenville, Ohio Status: offline    I can agree with the statement that something old may not have base wear if it was thrown away when it was fairly new but I have looked at a lot of antique dishes over the years and if it was used or moved even for dusting over a period of 50 years or more it will definitely have wear. It would pick up wear just from vibriation alone. If you see something at a sale and there is no wear then I'd be very leary of it. _____________________________ I buy, sell, barter, and beg....Zane (in reply to sweetrelease) Post #: 31

RE: dug Madonna - 7/31/2007 8:33:50 AM    David E Posts: 995 Joined: 5/24/2004 Status: offline I would renture to say it was end of day and a new employee was trying his skill at art glass and the applied handles. Best to look at bottom with a magnifing glass. I have found old stuff that you see no marks on bottom and look at the bottom kind of sideway and all over. As you know glass sitting on top of other glass (unless that glass holds a item that will scrape.And I have backed that up when the item turned purple.But still think they had glass left over, so needed the practice and thiis guy really needed it. Dave (in reply to zanes_antiques) Post #: 32

All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> What is it? BEFORE 1900 >> RE: dug Madonna

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