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RE: colored pontil medicine-cure

 
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RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/24/2007 6:41:25 PM   
Oldtimer


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Joined: 5/13/2004
From: Effingham NH. Where else?
Status: offline
I'm So jealous right now I could scream! SUPER nice bottle! killer! I'd NEVER sell that until I was forced to.

I was into the old stuff myself a few days back..... found shards of an pontiled amber bottle...and 4-5 clay pipes in a pile..I'm goin back, count on it..

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STOP THE CAR !!

I think I see a cellarhole !!!

(in reply to blade)
Post #: 21
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/24/2007 7:51:25 PM   
tigue710


Posts: 1747
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: connecticut
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Heckler and Glassworks will both be running an auction in January.  I recommend Heckler, he has a client list surmised of all the top collectors.  But be sure you to let them know you wish to sell the bottle in an absentee auction.  That is one sweet find!

http://www.hecklerauction.com/

http://www.glswrk-auction.com/




_____________________________

aint no bottles in there....

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Post #: 22
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/24/2007 9:58:37 PM   
blade

 

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You guys have been great with the info, I really appreciate it! GuntherHess - when I sell the bottle I will gladly give you the selling price + I'll let everyone no which auction house I decide to use so you guys can follow it.

(in reply to blade)
Post #: 23
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 1:30:47 AM   
druggistnut


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/7/2006
From: Otisville, Michigan
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Here are some bottle auction house links for you.
Keep in mind, there are several who charge 12% commission (or more), to the buyer AND the seller. That's how a few of them can take digging trips overseas, several times a year. I would also closely watch the descriptions they give on items. One well-known auction house never gives any pictures of damage they MIGHT describe. The color descriptions are questionable, too.  I won't buy a thing from them. I also called the owner early one Saturday morning (at home) to see what his reaction was. He reacted like a BUSINESS man, not a bottle hobbiest. Get my drift?
I have had very good dealings with Dennis at bottle auction.com   He has gone out of his way to provide extra photos, etc, and his fee only goes one direction (as it should). http://www.bottleauction.com

Here are some more, in no order of preference.

Bottles and More - Catalog Lots 1 to 15

American Bottle Auction - Catalog Lots 560 to 574

Glass Works Auctions - Catalog Lots 1 to 15

Norman C. Heckler and Company ~ Antique, Bottle and Glass Auctioneers


I hope you fellas uncover some more beauties- be sure to let us know.
Bill


_____________________________

Michigan drugstore bottles/dose glasses, jugs, etc... Any paper from Mich drugstores, pre 1900. Mich. blob beers/sodas, hutches. Anything unusual from Michigan, i.e., paper from bottlers, etc...
Buy or trade
President-Flint, Michigan FOHBC Club

(in reply to blade)
Post #: 24
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 1:48:56 AM   
druggistnut


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/7/2006
From: Otisville, Michigan
Status: offline
Follow-up to my last post.
There are other auction houses out there, my list wasn't all-inclusive. I either haven't looked at other house sites or have forgotten them.
Here are a couple interesting posts by Glenn Poch. You take what you need from them, but I was happy to have read them, when I did, BEFORE I ever consigned or bid on anything.

"As you may be aware,  there are a select number of Antique Bottle Auction Houses in the United States: Glass-Works, Pacific Glass, Norman Heckler, Skinner (Glass) and what was once known as Harmer-Rooke and then Charles G. Moore Americana. Only of recent has this last auction house comes under investigation for a number of unscrupulous actions including embezzlement. Charles Moore allegedly has vacated his business office without paying many of the consignors and failing to ship some of the items sold in prior auctions. The total of one consignor alone is over $100,000. It was later learned that he may be residing in Arizona, and even more disturbing he is rumored to be starting a new antiques business in this state. I have yet to find a story that would give Mr. Moore a beneficial outlook. Talking to a few of Chuck's former Employees provided an insight to his credibility and lifestyle, it seems that he was living a lavish lifestyle and could not afford to pay his bills during his finally auction years, feel that the number of corrupt individuals in this hobby is very minimal, lets keep it there and show that there will be no tolerance for this type of action within our hobby. Needless to say if some quality bottles start showing up, please take time to know whom you are dealing with and make sure that none of these bottles were already paid for."

"ANOTHER THOUGHT ON BOTTLE AUCTIONS

  1. Auctions of all types have been around forever. They serve two functions:

    • they help to dispose of estates (or otherwise unwanted collections) quickly
    • they help get the highest prices for top pieces
    glassCo, and I would presume all other bottle auction houses, is used for both. I would stress that option a) is used just as often as option b). Most pieces in any auction are not "the top" pieces, they are just regular, run-of-the-mill pieces.

  2. Auctions level the playing field.
    In Auction No. 7, there were many pieces we could have sold with a phone call. The left-handed pint Beaver, the 1737 sealed mallet, the Pressburg Warners all could have sold by a phone call. But by that means of selling, most collectors would NEVER have the chance to purchase quality pieces. A good example was our previous auction, No. 6, where we sold a rare Canada West medicine at auction. It could have quickly slipped into the hands of one of Canada's premiere collectors. As it was, the top three bidders on the piece were newer collectors, without the "connections", who never would have had the chance to own these pieces without the open auction process.

  3. Auctions and prices.
    Do auctions raise the prices of pieces? Probably yes, for the most part. Why? Because they stimulate DEMAND. In your newsletter No. 18, you mention one collector who was finally able to buy a Beaver jar, in Canada, from their computer in the states, via bottle auction. And yes, the price of Beavers is probably going up. If the Red Book on a quart Beaver is $50 (just guessing here), and they are now trading at $80, that rise is due to the fact that a larger American market finally has ACCESS to Canadian jars. The quantity has remained the same, just more collectors are interested in adding a certain piece to their collection. Competition has been stimulated across a wider marketplace. In the purest form, if you are against this competition and the subsequent rise in prices, look at your own collection. You would have to argue that Americans should not be able to buy Canadian fruit jars, and that in fact, they should be restricted to buying pieces from there own state or even their own hometown in order to force competition down. And that's not about to happen! And there are bargains every auction. If every auction house maintained current prices on there site like glassCo does, you could scan the auction every day as closing day comes, checking out the bargains and buying stock, traders or just plain bargains for your shelf!

  4. Problems with auctions, and regulation.
    There are always problems with auctions. You must be able to trust your auctioneer, as integrity is the only thing an auction house has going for it. I have been in contact with Kevin Sives of the FOHBC about setting up some sort of an ethics committee for the bottle community, similar to the NIA (National Insulator Association) ethics community, to police auctioneering and general selling in the hobby. We would like to see this put in place, and accreditations given to certified auction houses. Anyone can open a mom and pop bottle auction house on the web (we did, although we won't be a mom and pop until about August 15th!). Certification would mean that the FOHBC ethics community could review your bid sheets any time a sale is questionable.

  5. Things to be wary about:

    • The auctioneer owns the piece you are trying to buy.
      This is the single largest problem in the auction industry. The auctioneer is trying to sell you their own property. How do you get burned? Because you are bidding against a phantom. You bid 60, the auctioneer tells you they have a bid of 65...and so on as far up as they think they can take you. If they guess right, they get the maximum value for their piece. If they lose, hey, they just recycle it again two or three auctions from now. Since they own the piece, they are not responsible to a consignor to give the consignor money for the piece that didn't really sell. glassCo's policy is to neither sell nor buy bottles in its auctions (which really hurts sometimes when something I love goes thru our auction!). See, if you consign a left beaver to me, and I bid someone up, and they drop out...I have to pay you for the beaver jar. I now own it. So I'm not going to bid anyone up! But if I as the owner of the auction house buy the beaver from you before the auction, then I know what I paid for it, and I can sell

    • The auctioneer bumps your bid close to, or all the way to, your protected bid.
      In absentee auction houses, as at other auctions, you can leave an advance bid which is higher than the current level. There is always the danger that the auctioneeer will bid you up higher than the next highest bid, PARTICULARLY if the auctioneer owns the piece! They could always reason that you would be willing to go to the certain bid level anyhow, so what's the harm? The harm is that the auction process is corrupted by those actions. There is only one way to police this, which is by enforcing the above mentioned certification and bid sheet review by a central ethics committee. Before anyone who reads this has the warning bells ringing in their ears about previous bids they have left, remember...most auction items are highly contested, and it is pretty normal for your bid to get pushed to its limit, particularly on lower value (<$200) lots. Having sold a couple thousand pieces thru auctions, I know that most lots are won by one bid increment. In the last auction, someone left a bid of $210 on a piece, and ended up winning it for $210. Which can seem fishy. But I have the underbidder's email "$200...no more!", and I know this happens quite frequently. So all I can offer is that you have to be able to trust your auctioneer, and you have to be comfortable with your bid levels. Bidding only one increment above the previous bidder is the safest way of protecting yourself, but I guarantee you will lose lots this way, as you will be outbid by one bid by someone who waited until 5 minutes closer to closing time! In my view, if you feel good about the auctioneer, then leave a bid a couple jumps up, if that's within your comfort level for payment.

    • Another problem that doesn't affect buyers but affects sellers, is the auctioneer taking the sales money and using it for personal purposes. So long as you are constantly having auctions, and you can keep your consignors at bay, you can easily remove thousands of consignor dollars from the business and use it for business investments or personal purposes. Here's how you do it: George consigns 20,000 worth of bottles for auction 10, in January. You sell them, get the money in February, and use the 20K to buy stock for your store. George wants his money, but you put him off, telling him you are waiting for payment by buyers (or whatever). Fred consigns $20000 worth of bottles for the April auction. You sell them, get the money in May, and pay George. Now you go thru the same process with Fred, putting him off til the next auction. The cash flow crunch comes at some point, and everyone gets hurt. Jim Hagenbuch at Glass Works in Pennsylvania suggests a trust account, such that the auctioneer cannot take anything out until the consignor receives their percentage. Good idea, but such an animal as a trust account like this does not exist in Canada.

Buyer beware, I guess. Ask around. I have bought and sold at many of the known glasshouses. There are some I will never deal with again, some I would happily leave a very high advance with (and no, given my position in the marketplace, I won't name names). But many many collectors have bought from the likes of Pacific Glass, Glass Works, GlassCo, Hecklers and others, and will have their opinions. Ask around. And ask the auctioneer. I strongly recommend asking the auctioneer whether they own the piece you are thinking about buying. The wonderful thing about the Net is that more opportunities to buy are coming up. In Auction 7, we had what I thought was a unique book on wine glasses. When it sold, I was sad to see it go. But a search of the Web found a copy at a used book site. So if you really aren't comfortable with auctioneer X, just hold off...the piece will probably come up at another auction house, at another time.
All in my humble opinion. All in all, I think auction houses as a rule are excellent. I love auctions, and I love the variety that is opened up to me. Auctions can be a ton of fun when you are buying, and even when you are selling."

Both quotes are from Glenns' newsletter #19,  dated Sep/Oct 1997.
The advice about asking the auctioneer if the Glass House OWNS the piece you want to bid on is important. Ask and I'll tell you why.

Bill


(in reply to druggistnut)
Post #: 25
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 7:07:35 AM   
tigue710


Posts: 1747
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From: connecticut
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good piece there druggist, that is some reading I think everyone needs to see.  As far as indescribed and un photographed damage goes it is more then one of them.  I always thought it was funny that the big guys can say "hair line", "chip" or "flake" with out a picture, while anyone on e-bay doing the same will not sell their item!

_____________________________

aint no bottles in there....

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Post #: 26
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 10:22:03 AM   
bottlesam

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/27/2003
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Hi Everyone,
          Blade, what druggistnut and tigue710 both say, are VERY TRUE regarding the bottle auction sites. They could care less about you. What they do care about is making as much money as possible, period. They make money on both the seller and the buyer. In most cases 15% both ways. That's 30% of the selling price folks! You bet they are going to Europe each year. Heckler nor Hagenbush ever show you a picture of damage, never.
          Heckler doesn't even post his prices during the auctions. What does that tell you? Some auctions he doesn't even post the final prices either. I still am wondering what one of my bottle's really sold for on one of Heckler's auction's because he never posted the  final prices. Do you understand what I am saying?
         Now Hagenbush, it's always a inside joke between me and my friends that Hagenbush is having another "scratch and dent sale". To me 80 to 90% of his items are damaged in some way. Again no pictures. He tried to sell me a 1K soda that had a glued on top. His reply when confronted at the National Show was "it must have slipped by" slipped by my $%^. Theses people are professionals nothing "slips by them". He didn't even say he was sorry! I even had to pay the postage back, per Hagenbush's contract! I have never paid less than my maximum bid to Hagenbush. What does that tell you?
          Jeff Wichmann now is another story. I have had nothing but positive experiences with Jeff both as a buyer and a seller. But he sells mostly Western glass which might be a drawback. But, he is the ONLY bottle auction that have won a bottle on LESS than my max. bid. What does that tell you?
                                                                                      Bottlesam

(in reply to Oldtimer)
Post #: 27
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 11:37:18 AM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
Keep in mind we were discussing SELLING through an auction house not BUYING though one. Things like downplaying damage benefit the seller. The auction house is an agent for the seller , not the buyer. When you list your house with a realestate agent they are going to do what they can to benefit you as a seller not the buyer (there are now buyer agents of course).  That's not to say that the auction house should not still be honest with buyers. They realize if they dont also treat buyers reasonably well they wont have many customers after a while.

A couple years back I saw a high priced med at one of those major bottle auctions that had been modified. The neck had been cut off, ground down, and fitted with a metal cap to make it appear undamaged. I contacted the auction house and sent them documentation proving the item was damaged. They did not change the listing. This certainly helped the seller but hurt the buyer (and lowered my opinion of the auctioneer's integrety).

_____________________________

Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

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Post #: 28
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 3:19:12 PM   
baltbottles

 

Posts: 930
Joined: 11/25/2002
From: Baltimore Maryland
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I will have to say I've bought bottles from the 4 major Bottle auctions. Hecklers, American Bottle Auction, Glassworks, and BAM. I've had both good and bad experinces with all of them. I'm not going to go into detail and slam one pirticular auction house. But my opinion is that there is much room for improvment. Honestly if I was you and i was selling this bottle. I would contact several of the top pontiled med collectors and Just ask them to make offers. And had my own auction privately. Or just put a large reserve on it and ran it on ebay to get a starting point of its value. Then sit on it for a year or so before deciding what I was going to do with it. You could also consider consigning it to one of the better and more well known bottle dealers to sell for you Such as Jeff Noordsy, or Ed Gray. These people both get good prices for quality bottles because they have built a reputation for selling quality bottles and have large lists of  contacts.

Chris


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Please visit my website at : www.geocities.com/baltbottles/index.html

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 29
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 4:06:33 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
Some good ideas there.

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2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

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Post #: 30
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 6:34:42 PM   
bottlesam

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 12/27/2003
Status: offline
guntherhess quote ([Keep in mind we were discussing SELLING through an auction house not BUYING though one.)
Agreed, I went a tiny bit overboard on personal experiences. But they were both buying and selling experiances. This should be about selling.
 
guntherhess quote (just giving you a different view from a buyer's perspective.)
But in my opinion, (and your's too, it seems?) looking at only selling and not the buying as well, is like looking at only one piece of the puzzle.
 
guntherhess quote ( The auction house is an agent for the seller , not the buyer. When you list your house with a realestate agent they are going to do what they can to benefit you as a seller not the buyer (there are now buyer agents of course).
Let's talk SELLING Now I totally disagree with your above statement. Your logic is totally erroneous. A auction house works for THEMSELVES not the seller! That's where many people are confused. A  real estate agent makes money only off the seller, not the buyer. A bottle auction  makes  money off both the SELLER and the BUYER, so they represent neither (or both) depending how you look at it. They are simply, a high priced middle man, period.
 
I have bought and sold bottles for 38 years and used all of these bottle auction houses.
IN MY OPINION:
HECKLER'S: Most well known, best client base, alot of high rollers. Expect to pay 15% right off the top of the final price.
HAGENBUSH: 12% right off the top.
BOTTLES AND MORE: Free to selllers!
AMERICAN BOTTLE AUCTION: 10% for A high dollar item.

I agree with some of Chris' ideas.
I also believe that there is room for improvement in the bottle auction houses. But, I also think you need to hear some of the "slam's", (as Chris calls them). However, a slam is a derogatory statement,(which I tried not to do). I would rather call them facts!  I wish someone would have told some of them to me, before finding out the hard way. The best advice Chris gave you was to get in contact with as many of the high end pontil medicine collectors that you can and offer it to the highest bidder.I totally agree. You don't need a agent or middleman to sell that bottle as long as you are not in a hurry. I forgot to tell you GREAT FIND!!!
                                                                                bottlesam


(in reply to blade)
Post #: 31
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 6:59:14 PM   
appliedlips


Posts: 1705
Joined: 1/30/2005
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     First off,congratulations on a great find and good luck in whatever you do with it.

   As far as the auction houses are concerned my preference would be Glassworks.I have used several both to sell and buy and they have treated me the best.Most will negotiate on commission if you have a great item to sell,which you do.I do not think it is wise to choose based on SMALL differences in fees.Just like any service,you get what you pay for.Would you rather end up with 90% of the fair market value or 100% of half the fair market value?Sometimes if you have a good item that has sold recently you can establish a value of a similar item and price and sell it yourself.In this case where you have a very rare item I would think sending it to auction is the way to go.Everyone has good points and as long as you get it to one of the large auction houses and put in a premium catalogue sale and not a Clean up sale you will do fine.As far as Glassworks selling a bunch of damaged stuff that is absurd,they sell far more items than Hecklers over the course of the year and do sell off some lower end stuff from time to time but they also sell the best in hobby,also.Good luck in your future digs,Doug

< Message edited by appliedlips -- 11/25/2007 7:03:25 PM >

(in reply to Oldtimer)
Post #: 32
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 7:05:35 PM   
earlyglass

 

Posts: 366
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Status: offline
Well, I guess I will add my two cents, especially since I was the high bidder when the auction was pulled from Ebay. I liked the piece, but to be honest, I thought it was reasonably priced in the hundreds, not thousands. I could be mistaken, but the bottle had characteristics that are much more consistent to English bottles, so I had some difficulties believing it was prodcued by an American glasshouse. The font is very similar to many of the other English "cordial balm" bottles... but that observation is not what is in question here. With a lack of provenance and historical data, it is difficult to make an accurate assumption, and define a value.

I have bought and sold through all of the auction houses listed above, and trade regularly on Ebay, and sell through my site (which I won't plug!). There is really no ryme or reason as to what works best because the tides are always changing. I have purchased bottles from Hecklers, and sold them for a profit on Ebay, and vise versa. I will say that most of the collectors of colored pontilled medicine bottles are on Ebay. A GW Stone for $17,000, a Howards for $11,000, just a few weeks ago there was a Smiths for $3900 and a Covert's for $4000. So the big stuff is selling there. You could put these with Norm Heckler, and they may bring more or they may bring less. However, if you sell at auction, you will have to pay a consignor fee (10-15%) and there are no reserves, and you won't get paid for atleast 3 months from when you deliver the piece. I am not bashing the auction houses, I am just stating the obvious facts.

Sell wherever you feel comfortable. Limit your exposure to fees, and make sure you use a reserve. In my opinion, it is always best to sell privately or direct through a seller/buyer interaction.

Good luck with your bottle. Please keep us informed as you obtain information.

Earlyglass

(in reply to bottlesam)
Post #: 33
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 7:14:50 PM   
appliedlips


Posts: 1705
Joined: 1/30/2005
Status: offline
      Mike,

    I thought people were going high on putting a value on it also.I was guessing $1000-$2000 but not more.It is a great bottle but you are right about it looking like other English cordials but if it where English that could even boost value depending on the rarity.You do have a point about advoiding auction when possible,I try to sell and buy privately when I can fairly price an item.Doug

(in reply to earlyglass)
Post #: 34
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 7:27:04 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline
when guntherhess told him to reject an offer for a couple thousand, i was confused. i agree that the bottle should gain english intrest and american if its english made, but it doesnt jump the value that much. id hold onto it. then sell it in 10-15 years.

everything was said about auctions that needed to be said. all thats left is educated speculation. my educated speculation predicts that the bottle will bring 2500-3200 right now.

(in reply to appliedlips)
Post #: 35
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 7:28:45 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
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From: philad.A
Status: offline
and doug...way to go on your 666th post.

(in reply to PhilaBottles)
Post #: 36
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 8:31:32 PM   
druggistnut


Posts: 370
Joined: 1/7/2006
From: Otisville, Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

Sell wherever you feel comfortable. Limit your exposure to fees, and make sure you use a reserve. In my opinion, it is always best to sell privately or direct through a seller/buyer interaction.


I agree, Mike.
One big thing we all forgot about (or didn't post) was tax.  If you sell through an auction house and they send you a check, you get to pay Uncle Sam his BIG percentage, if it is a high end piece. Then, since Uncle Sam got his, you have to pay your state sales tax, too.  With a private sale (or eBay, as of right now), it's the "what goes on in Vegas" rule.
Bill

(in reply to earlyglass)
Post #: 37
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 8:44:54 PM   
tigue710


Posts: 1747
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: connecticut
Status: offline
You guys know it is American maker, and yellow olive right?  Similiar types have reached 8,000.00.  Top dollar of course.  Id go with Philla's estimate... 


_____________________________

aint no bottles in there....

(in reply to druggistnut)
Post #: 38
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 9:00:07 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
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I guess people dont read earlier posts in the thread?  I think we already established it is American and from Uniontown PA. It's unlisted, as early as the 1830s, and a rare color. If those features dont bring a lot more than a couple hundred I guess I am in the wrong hobby and should be collecting PEZ dispensors
These threads seem to degrade to chaos after more than one page

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 11/25/2007 9:02:25 PM >


_____________________________

Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

(in reply to tigue710)
Post #: 39
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 9:10:20 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline
tigue, we suggested an english glass house.

gunther, maybe you should read previous posts. we suggested an english glass house. and i didnt say it was worth hundreds. i gave my price, and im sure collectors would agree.

also, This one went to chaos in your own head because you think you can value bottles based upon ebay listings.

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 40
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