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RE: colored pontil medicine-cure

 
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RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 11:36:22 PM   
baltbottles

 

Posts: 930
Joined: 11/25/2002
From: Baltimore Maryland
Status: offline 		Ok my 3 cents. I'd say that with the proximity of Uniontown to Pittsburgh I'd say it was blown there. If not Pittsburgh then Philadelphia or Baltimore. The inwardly rolled lip is typically American. And would be highly odd for an English pontiled medicine. Also The tubular open pontil is more typically American. Most English pontiled meds have more of a sand chip or solid rod type glass pontil. Though sometimes an American looking open pontil can be found on a few examples. As for value Its a smaller sized bottle. But it is early has nice embossing and is colored. I'd personally think around $2-3000 is a fair price. Because For one its a Pa colored pontiled medicine. Pa colored pontiled meds are not as highly collected as those blown at New England, New York, or Baltimore Glass houses. Simply stated Pa has a high percentage of colored pontiled bottles and a smaller number of collectors willing to spend the money for them. This keeps their price down. Combine that with all the active digging going on in Pa towns there’s a good chance more examples will be uncovered.

Chris


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Post #: 61
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/25/2007 11:38:53 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		whamo

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Post #: 62
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 3:10:32 AM   
deepbluedigger

 

Posts: 231
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		Not much I can add, except on the subject of it being English or not. The embossing looks very English, but it is otherwise a bottle that looks competely American made, IMO.
As Chris says, the inward rolled lip is very American. They do occur on English bottles, but so rarely that I've only ever seen one bottle with that type of lip, that I'm confident is English.
The pontil could be English or American, but the smaller size suggests American (have a look at http://www.diggersdiary.co.uk/Articles/Pontils/Pontilmarks.htm for some pointers on English pontil marks - this is a page that needs more work and will be updated in the next couple of months. Comments and ideas very welcome!).
The colour - so long as the photos on the thread give a good representation - is almost unheard of on English made bottles.
There was another Braddee Cordial Balm bottle on eBay about a year ago. Six sided, colourless flint glass, pontiled, but with a flared lip and solid pontil. Looked a bit later than this one, and was a bottle that could have been English made. Having said that, Dr Braddee was definitely an American medicine man, with a very interesting story.
Jerry

P.S. I'm ALWAYS looking for English pontiled or hinge mold meds. If I thought that one was English I'd be fighting to get to the front of the queue!!!

< Message edited by deepbluedigger -- 11/26/2007 3:22:19 AM >

(in reply to blade)
Post #: 63
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 5:07:35 AM   
botil

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 10/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GuntherHess
A couple years back I saw a high priced med at one of those major bottle auctions that had been modified. The neck had been cut off, ground down, and fitted with a metal cap to make it appear undamaged. I contacted the auction house and sent them documentation proving the item was damaged. They did not change the listing. This certainly helped the seller but hurt the buyer (and lowered my opinion of the auctioneer's integrety).


Were you referring to that?


The bottle for sell:

Fancy Early Two Piece Mold Flask, Europe. 1800-1820. Oval form with vertical ribs at shoulder, a face in the sun at the center and a floral motif at the base surrounding the letters "Mottee" (in script)- reverse plain, dense amber (black), ground mouth with tin collar - pontil scar, ht. 5 7/8 inches, wdth. 3 inches; (no closure).
A most unusual bottle, perhaps of European origin for an alcoholic beverage. Estimate $500-1000

The bottle I found:



Helpful comments about glass auction houses' activities.
Juan Carlos




< Message edited by botil -- 11/26/2007 3:17:14 PM >

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 64
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 8:46:18 AM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: online
quote:

Ok my 3 cents. I'd say that with the proximity of Uniontown to Pittsburgh I'd say it was blown there. If not Pittsburgh then Philadelphia or Baltimore. The inwardly rolled lip is typically American. And would be highly odd for an English pontiled medicine. Also The tubular open pontil is more typically American. Most English pontiled meds have more of a sand chip or solid rod type glass pontil. Though sometimes an American looking open pontil can be found on a few examples. As for value Its a smaller sized bottle. But it is early has nice embossing and is colored. I'd personally think around $2-3000 is a fair price. Because For one its a Pa colored pontiled medicine. Pa colored pontiled meds are not as highly collected as those blown at New England, New York, or Baltimore Glass houses. Simply stated Pa has a high percentage of colored pontiled bottles and a smaller number of collectors willing to spend the money for them. This keeps their price down. Combine that with all the active digging going on in Pa towns there’s a good chance more examples will be uncovered.

Chris


"It's a smaller sized bottle"  and  "It's from smalltown PA not one of the other more highly collected cities" 
Those are two very good points and they will weigh against its rarity and color. It also appears to be dug and not attic mint which hurts it with the people who want perfection. 

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2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
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(in reply to baltbottles)
Post #: 65
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 9:32:34 AM   
earlyglass

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 12/21/2004
Status: offline 		Two more cents... I indicated that the embossing, font, and subject "cordial balm" looked English to me. Shape looks English as well. The color could be anywhere. Rolled lip does look American. Who knows for certain, so much of this is speculation. The fact that you have documentation regrding this merchant practicing in PA has alot of weight for certain. With that documentation... call it "American" until someone proves you otherwise!

Regarding the value, I still don't put the "highest" regards on it. I don't want to do any bashing at all, but the attractions (in my opinion) for colored pontilled medicines include...

1. Embossing which include a name (Dr. Whosit), concoction (health restorative), and location (Boston, MA) 
2. Strong attractive color ( rich emerald green, yellow, puce, honey amber, etc)
3. Size and shape ( large bottles in a rectangular form are most desired) The typical 9" rectangle with indented panels, and embossing on 3 or 4 sizes
4. Naturally, rarity is key. A few known examples is often better than a unique piece. People feel more comfortable with what they know and have always desired.
5. Keep in mind that value is only relative to the level of "buying power" of the collectors in that market, at that time.

This is just my opinion and two cents. There are no real rules, attraction and desire, like everything else, has alot to do with it. Here are some great medicines in my opinion (picture). Chris, I love your Berlin bitters... and that is a bit different from the norm, but highly attractive and desired... also well-known.

Sorry, I am typing quick so I don't "time-out"

Earlyglass   




Attachment (1)

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 66
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 10:00:50 AM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: online 		Very well stated. Good points on what makes the bottles desirable.

> I am typing quick so I don't "time-out"
have you tried selecting the text and using CTL-C to save it in the paste buffer before pressing the OK button? One of the forum members suggested this (sorry I forgot who) and it seems to work well when you type a long message and hope not to lose it.

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Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

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(in reply to earlyglass)
Post #: 67
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 10:15:14 AM   
tigue710


Posts: 1747
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: connecticut
Status: offline 		considering how much of a knot this bottle has gotten everyones panties into I bet it hits 4,500!

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aint no bottles in there....

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Post #: 68
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 10:39:03 AM   
idigjars


Posts: 1340
Joined: 12/24/2004
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Beautful Earlyglass.  Just making a suggestion, if you want to type something long why not cut and paste to and from Word?  Take care and thanks for sharing that great pic and information.  Paul

(in reply to tigue710)
Post #: 69
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 12:15:30 PM   
kungfufighter

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: online 		I am thoroughly confused.  To those folks bashing the auction houses I would ask how they make their living.  The selling of objects is the auctioneer’s livelihood and thus it stands to reason that they charge for their services.  Insurance costs, storage costs, energy costs, employee costs, catalog costs, research costs et al must all be considered when determining how to set their fees.  These men are professionals providing services as dictated by demand and they are compensated accordingly.  They are in business to make money, yes (and what businessman is not?), but in doing so they face the unenviable task of trying to keep both buyer and seller happy.  Having been privy to both the buyers and sellers perspectives I can assure everyone that that this is not an easy task.   To the gentleman who slammed an auctioneer for acting like a “businessman” when he called him at home on a Saturday morning I would ask specifically what he does for work and when I could call him at home to discuss that with him.  On one hand it seems that we want these men to be professional (in complaining about the way they list their bottles or charge for their services) but when it suits us we want them to be our chums.  That’s ridiculous.  These folks are engaged in making a living, just like every other able bodied man and woman in this country should be doing.  And, like anyone else working to get by they DO MAKE MISTAKES.  Though they are experts, some of these auctioneers catalogue thousands of bottles each year and things do in fact “slip by.”  There is no intended malice or subterfuge here but rather simple errors of omission.  Can anyone out there say that they have never made a mistake at their job?    Please understand I am not plugging the auctions – in fact, as a full time dealer the auctions hurt my business.  Still, it is difficult to sit here and read these wild accusations and inappropriate assumptions without somehow responding.   As for the bottle in question we must remember that just because it is embossed with the name of an American physician it was not necessarily made here.  There are countless examples of objects (bottles and otherwise) made overseas for the American market.  This is especially true in the aftermath of the war of 1812 when inexpensive imports (commissioned or otherwise) flooded our shores.  Several good points have been made in favor of English or American manufacture and I do not have anything to add on that score other than to emphasize that the embossing itself does not give definitive evidence of origin.

(in reply to idigjars)
Post #: 70
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 1:28:08 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		hey jeff, good points, but there are good doctors and bad doctors. there are good auction houses and bad auction houses. everyone is a critic, and everyone can have there own opinions about personal experiences. im sure you didnt like the service somewhere, but liked it another time.

(in reply to kungfufighter)
Post #: 71
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 1:32:52 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		back to the bottle...i know little about molds other than Philadelphia and NJ made bottles and what Chris has told me about the Baltimore stuff. I do not assume an amber puff is Stoddard just because its amber. This bottle looks to be dip molded? maybe an early Pitts made bottle? It almost takes the shape of a snuff.

(in reply to PhilaBottles)
Post #: 72
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 1:54:41 PM   
kungfufighter

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: online
quote:

there are good doctors and bad doctors. there are good auction houses and bad auction houses


I couldn't agree more.  I simply have a difficult time with folks making unfounded assumptions and/or questioning an auctioneer's right to charge for their services or act in a businesslike manner.  Are any of the auctioneers perfect?  Of course not.  With that said, they do provide an important service to the business (yes, I said that)/hobby of collecting old bottles and I don't think that they as a group should be unfairly maligned.

(in reply to PhilaBottles)
Post #: 73
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 2:06:35 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		ignore the assumptions and work with the experiences. and when someone complains about the premium, think about what you would like to pay at an any auction house. I usally pay 10% for a general auction and 15% for an antique sale. That is totally ridiculous, but like you said...this is how these people make a living. If the auction house appeals to the consumer in the quality manner, they should appeal to the consumer in the financial manner. I agree that its hard work to do thousands of bottles for an auction, but theres only how many sales a year?? they have plenty of time to consign and catty the shibby. to tell you truth jeff, i really dont care. if i wanted to buy a bottle i would want to touch it, and if i wanted to sell a good one, id sell it at a show. Id rather see the collector get it and id rather get as much as its worth. I dont want to worry if the right people see it etcetc. I sell good bottles that dont fit on the shelf about twice a year...i make my money off antiques and pimping.

(in reply to kungfufighter)
Post #: 74
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 2:17:47 PM   
earlyglass

 

Posts: 366
Joined: 12/21/2004
Status: offline 		Please, just don't mix antiques and pimping... nothing is gained from 80 year old prostitutes. 

(in reply to PhilaBottles)
Post #: 75
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 2:19:21 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		guntherhess is my #1 customer in that category....ill say that some people have wierd fetishes

(in reply to earlyglass)
Post #: 76
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 2:46:01 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5159
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: online 		If I was looking for a woman of ill repute I certainly wouldnt come to you for that service.

_____________________________

Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

(in reply to PhilaBottles)
Post #: 77
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 2:49:52 PM   
PhilaBottles


Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: philad.A
Status: offline 		well matty, it made it to page 4 before going downhill.

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 78
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 5:22:41 PM   
baltbottles

 

Posts: 930
Joined: 11/25/2002
From: Baltimore Maryland
Status: offline 		Matt,

The bottle obviously isn't dip molded. Its blown in a 2 piece hinge mold. If the bottle had been "dip molded" the process of expanding the gather fully in the mold to create the shape and embossing. Would have left no way to remove the bottle from the mold other then pulling it straight out. This would have distorted the embossing very badly and probably misshapen the bottle due to the bold embossing becoming stuck in the mold. In dip molding the mold only creates the basic shape of the bottle below the shoulder. the shoulder and neck are all free blown. This process was generally used to create unembossed utility forms. Such as Snuff and liquor bottles. The only embossed Dip molded bottles I can think of is the BGW (Baltimore Glass Works) Squat Cylinder circa 1800 ish. The embossing on these is so week it could easily go unnoticed if you didn't know to look for it. And another slightly taller cylinder of about the same age with a small W embossed on the side. Again the embossing is very week and distorted. As for amber utilities I'm sure most east coast glass houses made utility forms in colors other then aqua.

Chris

< Message edited by baltbottles -- 11/26/2007 6:46:46 PM >

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Post #: 79
RE: colored pontil medicine-cure - 11/26/2007 6:34:18 PM   
kungfufighter

 

Posts: 174
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: online 		Kudos Chris, as usual, you make a very clear explanation of the bottle making process.

(in reply to baltbottles)
Post #: 80
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