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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ?

 
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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 9:35:13 AM   
Road Dog


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve/sewell

Thanks Rory for the information some real nice bottles are posted.Are you a member at that forum or just a watcher reader of it.
This is one of my favorite shards it is of the window glass made at Wistarburgh again looking at the glass on the flat side it appears as a pale green
but turn it on its edge and the gall can be seen again with hints of the halo like blue green color.




Hey Steve, I'm a member over there. They have a bit of everything there. The black glass thread here has the makings of one you keep going back to for all the great info.

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Post #: 41
RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 12:29:24 PM   
daltonbottles

 

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"Black Glass" -  What is it and how do we define it ?  As Mike says, this could be a totally different discussion in itself.  But looking at eBay descriptions and some of the comments on other forum posts, the term black glass seems to be confusing to alot of folks.  Some tend to place anything "green" into the category.  But the glass color is only one characteristic of true black glass.  This primarily entails the olive to deep green, amber green, and amber glass colors.  But the real key I think is the color that the glass appears in REFLECTED light, not the actual color of the glass when held to a light source looking through the glass.  Black glass is simply a term used to describe glass that appears very dark or black under reflected light conditions.  A plain old incandescent light source indoors is really all you need.




< Message edited by daltonbottles -- 5/31/2010 12:30:34 PM >

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 1:33:23 PM   
jfcutter


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Great thread on black glass! I don't have much to add to it at this moment except to note that I agree to the definition by daltonbottles of what black glass is, i.e., glass that appears essentially black when viewed in reflected light (like on ones bottles shelves in a room, not in the window with the sun behind it). For example, the darkish green bottles in the image below are primarily not black glass to my eye, with the exception possibly of the small umbrella ink to the lower right.

I have to admit that I've not addressed the subject of 18th-century American-made black glass bottles (largely spirits & utility bottles) much on my Historic Bottle Website (HBW) since it is a minefield of speculation and very hard to be certain of with very few exceptions. I essentially "punt" on the subject by starting the website discussion around 1800 - around the time when American bottle making really took off - and by primarily only covering American (and some Canadian) made items. I largely avoid most foreign bottles since the HBW is long and complicated enough just covering the vast variety of bottles made in this country.

Certainly early American glass factories were making bottle which emulated Euro-wares of the period, but that is the problem...they look the same pretty much as noted in this thread. However, this thread has been educating me a lot on early American vs. European bottles...keep it up!

Bill





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< Message edited by jfcutter -- 5/31/2010 1:34:32 PM >


_____________________________

Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 1:47:53 PM   
jfcutter


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I should also add this from McKearin & Wilson regarding black glass (lifted from my HBW):

Black glass is probably "...the most important of the green glasses..." which "...was of so deep a color as to appear black in reflected light and even in direct light when the walls of the bottles were very thick..." according to McKearin & Wilson (1978:9).

Bill


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Bill Lindsey - Klamath Falls, OR.
Author of the BLM/SHA's "Historic Glass Bottle Identification & Information Website"
http://www.sha.org/bottle/index.htm
(...and a collector of American mouth-blown bottles)

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Post #: 44
RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 3:57:29 PM   
Steve/sewell


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This jug measuring 11 inches in circumference at the base and standing exactly 12 inches in height was found 75 feet from the Stangers glass works
during the reconstruction of US.Rte. 322.The top of the bottle has the very German influenced sheared top not usually seen on Dutch and English black glass
bottles.The color is golden olive amber.The turlington bottle was used strickley for size comparison.I would like to think this bottle was made right there on Stangers property as at one time they owned 5 square miles of land with the glass works,General store and later in 1790 Colonel Hestons Mansion to keep an eye on the glass works.The bottle looks to be from the 1780 to 1800 time period.




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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 3:58:55 PM   
Steve/sewell


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picture 2




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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 4:00:17 PM   
Steve/sewell


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Picture 3




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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 4:01:29 PM   
Steve/sewell


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Picture 4




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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 4:03:15 PM   
Steve/sewell


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picture 5




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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 5/31/2010 4:04:45 PM   
Steve/sewell


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Last one. The pontil sort of resembles a foreign galaxy.




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< Message edited by Steve/sewell -- 5/31/2010 4:07:03 PM >


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Post #: 50
RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/2/2010 1:44:59 PM   
daltonbottles

 

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Just a quick heads-up if anyone is looking for the Van Den Bossche black glass book.  Bargain on eBay item #200478867377.  This is usually a $250 book.  Hope this is appropriate here.  Not my auction by the way.

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/2/2010 1:52:49 PM   
earlyglass

 

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Dalton,  Thanks.

Steve, I am not sure what to make about your bottle... it would be good to see it in person. It is quite a large piece of glass! 

I would really like to see this thread continue. I will be posting more artifacts from glasshouses over the next couple of days, and maybe we can keep the conversation rolling. It is all so very informative.

Mike

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Post #: 52
RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/2/2010 2:19:27 PM   
daltonbottles

 

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No problem Mike.  I would like to see this thread expand too, maybe get photos of various black glass showing material from all periods between the shaft and globe types on into the later 1870s mold blown black glass.  I've always had a fascination with black glass, but there is surprisingly little information or discussion about it within bottle clubs, on the internet, or even in publication.  I have found that there seems to be a lot of confusion about dating this stuff, when in reality, black glass is one of the easiest forms to put within specific type and date ranges.  I'm constantly watching for certain pieces that I don't have represented in my collection, and some of the ones that you would think were common and simple to acquire can be surprisingly difficult.  At present I'm trying to put together a representative grouping of all the major styles from the beginnings of black glass production circa 1630 to around 1875 when most black glass production appears to cease.  It's really not that daunting a task, as there are relatively few individual "styles" involved, but I suppose it could be a major endeavor if you really tried to include all the "variations" from the norm.

DB

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/2/2010 4:28:58 PM   
Road Dog


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This is a real Kool article I posted once before. Thought it was appropriate here in this thread.
http://www.apva.org/pressroom/press_release.php?pr_id=13

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/2/2010 10:35:34 PM   
Steve/sewell


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Thanks Rory,thats a great article.In 1983 I spent two weeks in Virginia with the final week in the Tidewater area Bush Gardens,Jamestown all the old plantations on the James River.When we were at Carters grove Plantation the rear of their property is the bank of the James river. On a small section a new fort and settlement had been discovered called Wolstenholme Towne.This was was a fortified settlement in the Virginia Colony begun with a population of about 40 settlers of the Virginia Company of London which was located about 7 miles downstream from Jamestown. Named for Sir John Wolstenholme, one of the investors, it was established about 1618 on a plantation named Martin's Hundred. Housing in Wolstenholme Towne consisted of rough cabins of wattle and daub woven on wooden posts thrust into the clay subsoil.

On March 22, 1622, the Native American Powhatans rose to kill as many English settlers as could be surprised in their homes and fields. From the fall line of the James River to Hampton Roads, they burned and looted settlements, killing an estimated 400 colonists.
Martin's Hundred, the plantation hardest hit, lost more than 50, perhaps as many as 70. Wolstenholme Towne's death toll was not separated in the death rolls. About 30 miles upriver on the south bank of the James, Sir Thomas Dale's new "citiy" (sic) of Henricus was also wiped out in what has come to be called the Indian Massacre of 1622.

In the 20th century, separate groups of archaeologists uncovered the sites of both Wolstenholme Towne and Henricus. The former is located on the grounds of Carter's Grove plantation in the Grove Community of southeastern James City County. The findings were chronicled by author and historian Ivor Noel Hume.
In December 2007, Carter's Grove was acquired from the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation by CNET founder Halsey Minor for $15.3 million. Per the press release the new owner "plans to use the mansion as a private residence and use the site as a center for a thoroughbred horse-breeding program."
Wolstenholme Towne is now considered one of the many lost towns of Virginia.

The day we were there it was pouring rain and we didnt know that the archaeologists were working the site.The workers were not there and there was a break in the rain abd my wife and I wanted to see the gardens on the property as they were supposed to be some of the best in the world.
We were not dissapointed because it was an enormous English garden probably 500 by 500 feet.After finishing walking the garden the sun popped out and we wanted to see the James river up close.There on the right about 150 feet from the banks of the river a full blown archaeological dig was under way.
The tiered layers of the dig were filled with water as days of rain flooded all of South Eastern Virginia.The entire area was roped off with crime scene safety tape.As we were leaving I spotted on the edge of their tape line of demarcation a piece of glass sticking out.It turned out to be a fully intact English mallet bottle which I took back to the museum house after thinking long and hard as to whether to keep it or not.My conscience wouldnt allow me to keep it.Later that same year a large story with plenty of pictures of the site and the artifacts found was in the National Geographic magazine.

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/3/2010 8:35:01 AM   
Road Dog


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Thanks for the read Steve. Did they give you credit for the find?

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/6/2010 5:52:36 PM   
Road Dog


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Here is another link of a Black Glass discussion.
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,257155.0.html

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Post #: 57
RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/8/2010 6:33:38 PM   
baltbottles

 

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Mike after going through all the City Directories here's the yeas Smith Is listed. The bottle is a bit later then most would suspect.

Chris

1829 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, cor. South & Water dw Fayette w of Charles

1831 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St; dw St.Paul's st s of Saratoga

1833-34 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St; dw 48 St.Paul's st s of Saratoga

1835-36 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 South St

1837-38 Directory Smith J. L. M. wine merchant, 25 Water St. dw Saratoga st near Cortland

1842 Directory Smith J. L. M. importer of wines, 21 South St.


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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/8/2010 8:42:19 PM   
earlyglass

 

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Chris, Thanks for doing that research. Yes, the bottle does look much older than that, I would have figured 15 years earlier! Given the length of time they were in business, you would think that there would be quite a few examples out there, however they rarely show up.

Were any glasshouses in the Baltimore area producing such wines during the 1830s??

Mike

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RE: English Black Glass or Dutch ? - 6/18/2010 12:33:59 AM   
RED Matthews


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Hello all of you,  And you get a thanks from me also  RED Matthews

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