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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Cleaning and Repairing >> To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question.

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To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 3/30/2003 10:30:52 PM    Flaschenjager Posts: 1141 Joined: 12/21/2002 From: Central Virginia - USA Status: offline Greetings to all, 1.) Would you tumble a bottle that was worth $2000 or more? Would this make it worth less or more after a buff? How about $1000? (prices would reflect money offered for the bottle - not near mint prices as found in a price guide or auction report) 2.) Would you tumble a bottle that was one of less than five known? How about less than three? Would this make it worth less or more? Keep in mind that: 1. The bottle has a slight chance of breaking. 2. Somebody has to tumble it, if you can' t do it yourself professionally, can you trust someone else to do it? Is it really worth it? I' m just trying to stir up a discussion/argument. _____________________________ 'Meech' Our websites: http://mysite.verizon.net/flaschenjager/bottles.html Member of FOHBC - RABCA - APBCA Editor of 'The Digger' in full color! Please support the forums with a donation or purchase! Post #: 1

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 3/30/2003 11:24:17 PM    Guest personally i wouldnt tumble any bottle, i like them (as found) . as you know when a bottle is tumbled it takes away from the glass and weakens the embossing. i am happy just to get the dirt out. i am not in this hobby for the $' s. and i dont care what a bottle is worth. but if i did have a bottle polished it would be one i would keep for my self. i think it takes away from the value, but others might disagree. i would not sell a polished bottle without telling the buyer that it was. thats my opinion on polishing. as far as professionals go i cant think of one that will assure you that they wont damage your goods, so my advise is if you have a real rare anyting leave it as found and take no chances i dont believe the words near mint covers polished bottles , if it was a rare coin it would be concidered a bad thing and would devalue the item. anyone else have an opinion? (in reply to Flaschenjager)   Post #: 2

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 3/31/2003 1:31:33 AM    IRISH   Posts: 1238 Joined: 11/23/2002 From: cockatoo Australia Status: offline I think that polishing IF it' s done well improves dull and badly tip stained bottles, nothing worse than a badly polished bottle tho. if some one sells a polished bottle they shoud tell the buyer, I think anything thats been done to a bottle always must be told upfront when selling. it' s a bit of a bummer to get home from a show and then find a fault that' s been hidden etc etc. (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 3

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 4/1/2003 6:32:44 AM    Guest quote: Would you tumble a bottle that was worth $2000 A very good question and I personally would not. There are some expert tumblers out there but accidents happen. It is not surprising considering the bottle is in motion for a week or so. If the $2000 bottle was a candidate for cleaning I would however consider it for expert acid bath cleaning. I have seen some truly remarkable results from experts using this highly dangerous technique. It does seem to me to be intrinsically safer as far as the bottle is concerned but far riskier for the cleaner I also agree that cleaning is better left for your own collection. If the bottle is to be sold on then the new owner can decide if and how they want it cleaned. (in reply to Flaschenjager)   Post #: 4

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 4/3/2003 11:45:37 PM    baltbottles   Posts: 930 Joined: 11/25/2002 From: Baltimore Maryland Status: offline To professionally clean a rare bottle or to leave it in dug condition. In my opinion it all depends on the bottle and what you plan to do with it. If the bottles is very rare with less than 5 known and you plan to keep it leave it alone but if you plan to sell it at auction I would have it cleaned because many of the top end collectors prefer bottles as close to mint as possible and many of these top end collectors may not bid on a bottle in dug condition. If you plan to sell the bottle privately I would ask the person who wants to buy the bottle would you pay more if I have the bottle cleaned and if the answer is yes by all means have it cleaned if the answer is no than just sell it as is. My personal collecting philosophy is that I prefer bottles in dug condition for my own collection and I will pay more for one that was dug with some light stain and wear than I would for one that has been cleaned. I look at it like this if its in dug condition I can always have it cleaned but once Its been cleaned I can never put it back to the way it was before the cleaning and in my opinion the fact that the bottle survived 100 or more years in the ground is part of the bottles history and character. Chris (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 5

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 4/14/2003 1:01:29 PM    Guest Personally I dislike glass that has been altered in any way. Everyone gets to decide for themselves what they' ll accept, but for me a bottle that' s been tumbled is at best a sort of pseudo-mint, not actual mint. One of the things that drew me to the hobby many years ago, besides the sheer beauty of sparkly wavy glass, was the inherent honesty of it. Where all sorts of other antiques got faked, altered, redone or resurfaced, and you had to distrust their immediate appearance until they passed a close and suspicious inspection, bottles had an uneven, curved, richly textured surface inside and out, that was all visible, and if it looked good, it was. It was sad to me when I realised I had to set up that distrustful mentality in my head when tumbling first became widespread, but now I can usually tell when a piece has been cleaned, and pass on it. Oddly enough though, repairs to broken lips and such don' t bother me as much, I guess because they are readily visible as repairs. In any case, I belive that bottles that have been restored should always be identified as such, and priced accordingly. (in reply to Flaschenjager)   Post #: 6

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 4/22/2003 12:35:07 AM    Guest Tumbling really depends on your personal preferences. I prefer to take a bottle with severe mineral stain and tumble it for 1 day. Some people tend to over polish bottles. There are alot of different types of polishing and cutting mediums that all work in different fashions. Honestly what do you think is more attractive a beautiful clean cobalt pontiled soda or the same bottle with a rainbow type irridescence. (in reply to Flaschenjager)   Post #: 7

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/28/2003 12:22:02 AM    BRIAN S.   Posts: 1471 Joined: 5/27/2003 From: The Mountains of Tennessee Status: offline Like in the previous post , I feel tumbling is a personal preference . I really don' t think tumbling hurts the value of a bottle if done properly and not over tumbled. And it does drastical improve the apperance for display purposes. With some of the new plastics they have available on the market for tumbling it' s very hard to tell if a bottle has been tumbled or not. Of course the plastics take much longer to polish the glass. And breakage is less likely because of no copper being used and you don' t have the weight slinging around inside the tube. I have tumbled many bottles without a loss to date. Knock on wood ! And I have a Semi-cabin Bitters ( only known example) that is in dug condition. It has some outside staining , but still I won' t polish it and take a chance on ruining this unique example. So , I just rubbed some olive oil on it and set it in the display case. And it displays just fine like that ! But , if I tumble a bottle for resale I always let the buyer know it has been tumbled before his purchase. Just good & honest business ! (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 8

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/28/2003 8:27:02 PM    Guest Brian, I could not agree with you more. Do you dig your bottles ? slimdigger (in reply to BRIAN S.)   Post #: 9

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/29/2003 1:06:59 AM    BRIAN S.   Posts: 1471 Joined: 5/27/2003 From: The Mountains of Tennessee Status: offline slimdigger , I have dug some of my bottles , but not all of them. I have also obtained some by purchasing privately , Shows , ebay , Auctions, and of course trading. (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 10

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 6/11/2003 12:36:39 PM    scott grandstaff   Posts: 17 Joined: 10/31/2002 Status: offline It' s a matter of skill. I have tumbled around 1/4 of all the colored, gold rush era, San Francisco sodas known. It' s funny how certain things come around. None of them mine (sniff) and many of them more valuable than my cars put together. Not to mention thousands of bottles of every description over the years. At one point I had capacity to tumble a dozen bottles at once. I have since taken down my smaller machine but can still do 8. Tumbling removes almost no glass whatsoever. Acid cleaning removes more, most times, even though tumbling is much slower. I have never in all my work come close to removing embossing or even making a difference anyone could tell. You can' t tell a well tumbled bottle from one which is not. Many bottles I' ve cleaned going back decades have passed through the major auction houses as " attic mint" with the most highly knowledgable collectors in the category lining up to buy them. There is no need to damage an improved pontil mark. This is the mark of lesser skill. Tumbling cannot fix all problems though. Scratches and deep case wear can' t be removed this way. Tiny bottles are very hard to clean. Bottles with deeply pinched corners like in some of the rectangular medicines and pepper sauce bottles should be avioded. The copper can pack densely into the corners and prove to be really dangerous to get back out. Ordinary squares and rectangles are no problem. Most any bottle you see in a big league auction at a high price has been cleaned. All major auctioneers routinely send out the top stuff just to brighten it up if it hasn' t already been done sometime in the past. Acid cleaning is actually faster and safer. Safer for the bottle, but ridiculously dangerous for the operator. To properly handle the acid fumes would take around $200,000 US dollars in equipment and even then you couldn' t get the proper permits for operation. For that you' d need to build a facility from the ground up. The guys cleaning with acid now are " dead men walking" but don' t always know it. One casual look at Simon tells the tale plainly. yours, Scott (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 11

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 6/24/2003 10:16:24 PM    Relicsnstuff   Posts: 46 Joined: 6/23/2003 From: New Orleans Area Status: offline Hello; As for tumbling, I dig in New Orleans and almost all bottles dug here need to be tumbled. I found a few very rare bottles, one of them is one of three know. I have tumbled them all, the trick is not to over clean and protect the pontils and lip. I would be real carefull to send bottles out to be tumbled as there are risks in shipping as well as how much experience the person has at tumbling. There is always risk in tumbling thin glass bottles as well. I have been tumbling for about four years and have never lost a bottle due to tumbling, I know some other fellow diggers that have had bottles break during the tumbling process. If I had a rare bottle and I could not do it myself I would seek out some one in my area that I knew had the experience to do the job. Joe. (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 12

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 7/6/2003 4:18:08 PM    wvbottlehead Posts: 220 Joined: 7/4/2003 From: WV Status: offline I don' t see tumbling as altering or damaging to a bottle at all. Done properly I see it as restoring the bottle to it' s original condition. I have tumbled many of my own bottles and never broken one or affected the embossing. Rectangular bottles & bottles with damage must be tumbled on a slow speed. I would never use a buffer. Aluminum oxide does the trick for bringing the shine back. Sometimes you can' t appreciate the true color (especially amber, green etc.) of the glass until it as been properly cleaned, but I too have some bottles I chose not to clean because I think they just look better, many years in the ground can produce a beautiful iridescence . Scratches can also be safely removed using a fine grit silicon carbide, Although I usually don' t mind a few scratches on my bottles it too gives them character. < Message edited by wvbottlehead -- 7/7/2003 8:39:52 PM > (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 13

To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 9/16/2003 4:01:20 PM    Flaschenjager Posts: 1141 Joined: 12/21/2002 From: Central Virginia - USA Status: offline WOW!!! What a great response from all. A lot of great points are made. Tumbling bottles can always be a part of a good discussion, for many reasons. The part of the country you live in factors in as well, New Orleans area for example. I also do feel that a dealer should tell the buyer that the bottle has been tumbled. This is a must. As far as tumbling my own finds, well I agree on a light tumble to some, but I've never done this, yet. I don't own a machine, but I'm certain I will in the future. The olive oil trick works well and I've done this to a few, because it's quick, easy and can be washed away and doesn't alter the bottle at all. Once again, Thanks to all who helped make this a great discussion! _____________________________ 'Meech' Our websites: http://mysite.verizon.net/flaschenjager/bottles.html Member of FOHBC - RABCA - APBCA Editor of 'The Digger' in full color! Please support the forums with a donation or purchase! (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 14

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 10/9/2003 8:43:18 PM    slcholt   Posts: 76 Joined: 10/8/2003 Status: offline I'm sure I'm not going to change anyone's mind and this seems to be an ongoing controversy, but I used to believe the same that a bottle should be as dug. You're pretty much stuck with that option based on the costs of sending a bottle to be cleaned. But I've also had mixed feeling when I ended up selling a good bottle for so much less because it is so clouded and opalized. Granted there are some of those that have a nice pattern or iridescence that can make a bottle more interesting. BUt in most cases, it just diminishes the value. I recently got a tumbler because I'm one of those that kept everything I dug and have a large variety of everything. I have to tell you, it's truly exciting to see a cloudy bottle come out shiny. I don't see it as cleaning, but restoring the beauty of the treasures I have. If I were to find a diamond ring in the ground, I certainly would have it cleaned and not cling to the idea that dirty is the way it should stay. The polishing process doesn't damage the glass or the embossing and all of a sudden you can see all the flaws and bubbles and whittle marks and all that old bottle character that the opalization was hiding. Todays technology makes it simple and inexpensive and I am now going thru my whole collection with new eyes. I will also be able to make bargain purchases and enhance their value. Take a look at the attachment. Can you actually tell me you prefer the cloudy version? I say, keep those interesting ones but restore the beauty if you can. If not now, there will be a time when the value is important and I think a nice shiny, beautiful bottle, is what will keep your treasures exciting. Attachment (1) (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 15

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/9/2006 12:56:32 PM    bttlmark   Posts: 402 Joined: 11/23/2005 From: N.E. Florida Status: offline Clean & Pretty is better than Sick and Ugly (in reply to slcholt) Post #: 16

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/9/2006 3:05:50 PM    GuntherHess Posts: 5160 Joined: 12/13/2004 From: Frederick Maryland Status: offline In general from what i have observed at auctions, bottles that have been cleaned usually bring a higher price than bottles which have significant stain/haze. Buyers paying top prices for high end bottles seem to prefer clean versions, tumbled or attic clean. Tumbling has risk, but so does shipping. There are some bottles you just dont want to tumble, bottles with onionskin surface bubbles, bottles with cracks, early medicines with thin corner walls. If its something like a heavy soda bottle that is very unlikely to be damaged then you dont have to worry much about damage. I prefer tumbled over hazy but its a personal preference. < Message edited by GuntherHess -- 5/9/2006 3:08:58 PM > _____________________________ Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles 2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg (in reply to bttlmark) Post #: 17

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/13/2006 7:56:53 AM    annie44 Posts: 1138 Joined: 10/27/2005 Status: offline I definitely prefer bottles that are clean and shiny, over ones in dug condition.  They display so much better in my opinion.  That being said, if I had a very expensive bottle to sell, I would leave it to the buyer to tumble or not tumble rather than risk the bottle breaking while I had it tumbled, even if that meant I got less for the bottle.  I agree with the opinion that tumbling is not altering the bottle, just restoring it to its original condition, and they sure do look nice when they sparkle!      (in reply to Flaschenjager) Post #: 18

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/13/2006 9:42:13 AM    bearswede Posts: 2910 Joined: 9/28/2004 From: western mass Status: offline I think the last four posts pretty much sum up my thoughts on the matter... As to not wanting glass that has been altered, well that's just not possible... First of all, glass is technically a liquid and is flowing under gravity at an extremely slow rate... Thus it is theoretically if not practically subject to alteration as it sits on a shelf... Second, if dug, it has already been altered from it's original condition at the time of being blown, by various natural/cultural processes... Technically, simply washing the bottle is altering it's "found" condition... Anyway, it's up to the owner... And passing on info about tumbling is a courtesy, but I don't see it as an ethical necessity... Repairs on the other hand are a different matter... Ron _____________________________ "I LOVE Wolfies!!!!!!!!!!!!" (in reply to annie44) Post #: 19

RE: To tumble or not to tumble...that is the question. - 5/13/2006 3:31:03 PM    capsoda Posts: 7924 Joined: 11/15/2005 From: Seminole,Alabama, USA Status: online Hey Ron,...... exsqueeze me......pardon moo.......huh.......what.......eeh......pardon-a- muaa........say  what. I don't think i got that. Wait I think something nicked my head as it went over. Just joshin but that is a very good point that I will use to advantage. _____________________________ Warren Diggin down in Dixie, USA Work is for people who don't dig bottles President, Panhandle Cruisers http://www.panhandlecruisers.org/ (in reply to bearswede) Post #: 20

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