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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Digging and Finding >> RE: London Mustard

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RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 1:33:08 AM    Guest quote: here is a site i found, not sure if it help's your quest but i hope it does. Thank you Tim. I did know about this site but so far no one I have emailed there has responded. (in reply to Guest)   Post #: 21

RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 5:56:42 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline I have taken up the task, Roger. I made written inquiry today about getting a copy of this 1983 article. I have had some success in the past getting older technical papers from journals, but it usually takes two or three weeks. We'll see. ------------Harry Pristis _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 22

RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 6:37:49 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline I may have an answer for the question (in another thread from 2002) about the London Mustard bottle embossed "W.B. No. 7" that Chris dug. Rather than "William Burrowes," I think the letters may stand for "Whitall Brothers." No. 7 may be Whitall's mold number or catalog number. According to McKearin-Wilson, In 1844 the Whitall regime began when Whitall Brothers acquired the Millville Glass Works. Five years later the firm became Whitall Brothers & Company.... In the panic year 1857, Whitall, Tatum & Company was formed.... One bottle-maker's price list already cited in this thread listed "London" mustard bottles as late as 1856. A date of 1844-57 is a little later than Chris suggested for his dig, but as the archies say, "Contamination happens!" What do you think, Chris? ---------------Harry Pristis _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 23

RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 6:56:31 PM    maineahh62   Posts: 108 Joined: 3/13/2004 From: Maine Status: offline hello roger, your welcome, i wish i could have been of help, i am glad to see harry take up the task, he certainly seem's to rank right at the top here. _____________________________ Timothy McKinnon (in reply to Guest) Post #: 24

RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 11:07:27 PM    baltbottles   Posts: 930 Joined: 11/25/2002 From: Baltimore Maryland Status: offline Harry I guess you could be right but just looking at the bottle the style of pontil and lip suggests a much earlier date of manufacture. But nothing would surprise me in a baltimore privy. If you want to see some better pictures of the WB mustard i just put it up on ebay here is a link to the auction. Take a look at it and let me know what you think. I believe its no later then the 1820s and that would agree with the age of the other bottles and ceramics in the hole. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3290571000&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 here is a link to the other London From my dig also on ebay this week http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3290572311&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1 Chris (in reply to Guest) Post #: 25

RE: London Mustard - 5/3/2004 11:50:08 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Thanks for the links, Chris. Interesting bottles both. I don't have a strong opinion about the age of these bottles, neither yours nor my own. About the only thing I can say with any confidence is that the ones I've seen are from the first half of the 1800s. Maybe we'll learn more if someone gets ahold of this Historical Archeology paper we've just talked about. Interestingly, the title of the article (as Roger mentioned) is "London Mustard Bottles - ca. 1800-1900". The article is 15 pages long, so maybe there will be some illustrations. -----------Harry Pristis _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 26

RE: London Mustard - 5/4/2004 5:50:17 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Okay, one more run at identifying Chris' W B No 7 London mustard bottle! The Baltimore Glass Works, founded in 1800, was owned and operated by several investor groups over subsequent decades. The Works survived the depression following the War of 1812 and the "Jackson's Panics" of the 1830s. Finally, in 1836 (give or take a year), faced with foreclosures, the then-owner "turned to William Baker [junior], a judge in the Orphans Court of the City of Baltimore and a son of the William Baker, who had founded [date unspecified] William Baker and Sons, a dry goods house. "An interest in the Baltimore Glass Works was natural, for, according to an 1837 Baltimore directory, William Baker had a glass warehouse on Hanover Street." (McKearin-Wilson, pp. 73) It is easy to deduce that W. B. No. 7 could refer to William Baker [senior] for whom Baltimore Glass Works made a line of distinctive bottles. This line could have been manufactured very early in the century, prior to any "sons" being involved in Baker's business. McKearin says that the first mention of "London Mustard squares" dates to 1808. On the other hand, this W B No 7 could have been made after 1837 for William Baker (junior), the new owner of the Baltimore Glass Works. Could be more Baltimore history there than we realized, Chris. What do you think? -----------------Harry Pristis < Message edited by Harry Pristis -- 5/4/2004 9:48:48 PM > _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 27

RE: London Mustard - 5/31/2004 6:29:12 PM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Alllriiighttt! I now have a copy of the article LONDON MUSTARD BOTTLES by Olive R. Jones! It is a long article, so I'm going to present just a few highlights that touch on our earlier discussion and speculation. I will skip the history and uses of mustard. First, we are talking about "mustard squares" of the "London type." There are other mustard bottles which are excluded from this definition such as this "flat octagonal bottle" out of the Charles Gardner collection (not illustrated in the Klampkin-Gardner book). This bottle was blown in a hinge mold and has a pontil scar. Jones does NOT consider this a variation of the LONDON mustard square. The first indisputable reference to "LONDON mustard squares is in an ad in the New York Evening Post for 18 February 1808. The latest reference is in a Whitall, Tatum & Co. catalog for 1880. Examples of LONDON mustard squares occur in colorless (lead) glass or in various shades of light green glass (which may also have a high lead content). These squares may have, according to Jones, these embossments: LONDON LONDON / MUSTARD LONDON / ___ 05 (fragmentary) LONDON / ___ No. 6 (fragmentary) [We can now add Chris' LONDON / W B No. 7 to this list] (And for LONDON-type mustard squares) NO embossing DURHAM / MUSTARD HY WHEELER / LIVERPOOL ___KINS / SUPERFINE / DURHAM / MUSTARD KENTUCKY (two examples, no further information available) This is a generic bottle form ["mustard square"] for powdered mustard, holding about 2 ounces by weight. "Embossed examples indicate that different varieties of dry mustard, such as London and Durham, would have been packaged in these bottles." "[The mustard square form] was made in the United States, Great Britain, and possibly Denmark. Alternate glass bottle forms were also being used for dry mustards but in larger sizes, such as 1/4, 1/2, and 1 pound." "In the second half of the 19th century...a closely related form was being used for capers and for snuff. . . . By the last third of the 19th century, probably the only unequivocal survivor of this form [mustard square] as a generic mustard container would be those embossed LONDON." Thanks, Roger, for the heads-up on this article. This has been interesting, but I still prefer ketchup. --------------------Harry Pristis Attachment (1) < Message edited by Harry Pristis -- 5/31/2004 6:46:17 PM > _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 28

RE: London Mustard - 6/1/2004 8:51:23 AM    baltbottles   Posts: 930 Joined: 11/25/2002 From: Baltimore Maryland Status: offline HI Harry, Thanks for sharing all your research. I think you may be correct with the W.B. being William Baker. And I think this would fit in well with his glass warehouse and that would fit in with the early date of the hole this bottle was found in. It’s interesting to see that there was other bottles embossed with London and a Number its probably pretty safe to assume that the missing embossing was W.B. I would like to know were those examples were found if in the Baltimore area I would have to agree that the W.B. is William Baker. You can also add S.H. & Co / Hull to the list of embossed mustard squares we dug one of these over the summer also but I did not get it in the pick. I would think Hull is Hull England. Chris (in reply to Guest) Post #: 29

RE: London Mustard - 6/1/2004 10:59:46 AM    Harry Pristis   Posts: 495 Joined: 7/24/2003 From: Northcentral Florida Status: offline Hello, Chris . . . Olive R. Jones does not record the details of the fragmentary numbered squares, but does say that they are in the Parks Canada collections. Later, she says, "Fragments of these bottles [LONDON mustard squares] are numerous at several British military sites in Canada--Fort Beausejour/Cumberland in New Brunswick; Quebec City, Fort Lennox, and Coteau-du-Lac, Quebec; Fort George, and Fort St. Joseph, Ontario. Lest forum readers get the impression that "LONDON mustard squares" are to be dug only in the Northeast, Jones also reports: "Twelve examples of London Mustard [squares] were recovered from a trash pit at Washington -on-the-Brazos, Texas. Examples were found at Fort Gadsden, Florida, at Fort Atkinson, Nebraska, from an Indian burial in eastern Oklahoma, at Pope's Freehold in St. Mary's City, Maryland, and at Batsto, New Jersey." Readers can probably add to this list from their own experience. ----------------Harry Pristis _____________________________ ______________________________________________ Visit The Demijohn Page at: http://members.aol.com/pristis/index.html (in reply to Guest) Post #: 30

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