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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Digging and Finding >> RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards?

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RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/24/2006 10:06:45 PM    downeastdigger Posts: 1369 Joined: 8/22/2005 From: Crawling through the mud and briars of Eliot Maine Status: offline The "Mother of all Shards" This shard was dug by a friend, and I traded whole bottles for it.  It is a thick panel from a bottle that lines up almost exactly with a Townsends.   It is olive amber, and is embosse "  , N.H. " It's not a Kimballs, or a Sweets or any other known med. My best guess, after a lot of research is that it might be an embossed variant of a "Fowler's Stomach Bitters",  which is a rare bottle from the small town of Bristol NH,  but it is a "label only" bottle.  The bottle itself is a tall paneled bottle, so if the same proprietor had an embossed bottle, it could possibly be this. My hope is to find a whole one :) Attachment (1) (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 21

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/24/2006 10:21:49 PM    capsoda Posts: 7865 Joined: 11/15/2005 From: Seminole,Alabama, USA Status: offline Great shards Bram. I used to collect them and probable still have a few of my favorites hidden but the wife said bottles or broken glass but not both. I already have bottles in evry room of the house. _____________________________ Warren Diggin down in Dixie, USA Work is for people who don't dig bottles President, Panhandle Cruisers http://www.panhandlecruisers.org/ (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 22

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 7:58:23 AM    Mainepontil Posts: 215 Joined: 1/11/2005 Status: offline There is a whole lota heartbreak there.  Isn't it funny how you can dig a dump full of broken pontil shards then that one whole bottle is a 3 in 1 oil ???  _____________________________ Dig it NOW....before a housing development is built. (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 23

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 10:25:30 AM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline I'll be posting some shard pics a little later. I just wanted to say that I started to compare the shards that I dug yesterday with the shards that I dug last time and was I surprized. Not only did I dig more shards to a success to the railroad flask but I dug another shard to a different success to the railroad flask. I have the back legs of the horse pulling the wagon and the other shard you can see part of the horses leg and the wagon wheel. I also have a bunch of shards that I can't identify yet. I also have what I believe to be a piece of a pontil rod. The one olive amber pontiled 8 sided umbrella looks to have some light embossing on the base. I'm starting to wonder about this 8 foot round hole that I found all of these in. I'm hitting undisturbed dirt and water only a foot down. I'm thinking this hole is only shards. There has got to be a good pontil hole here somewhere. HELP!!! It may be a while before I get the pics posted but it will be sometime today. swizzle (in reply to Mainepontil) Post #: 24

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 10:38:06 AM    earlyglass   Posts: 353 Joined: 12/21/2004 Status: offline Swizzle,  I'm anxious to see your shards. I will post some as well. Bram,  I have looked at that "N.H." shard a dozen times already. Can you tell me if this label only Fowler's bottle was a Stoddard square and in the Townsend size? Being an unlisted colored pontilled NH bitters... this would be the mother of all New England bottles! I have to see a whole one in my lifetime. Mike (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 25

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 10:50:55 AM    downeastdigger Posts: 1369 Joined: 8/22/2005 From: Crawling through the mud and briars of Eliot Maine Status: offline Hi Mike, The Fowlers bottle is in the Ring Bitters book, it is F-74 I'm at work now, but I cant remember the exact shape, but it is close to a Townsends but a more sloped shoulder. It is only embossed "FOWLERS - STOMACH BITTERS" but not BRISTOL , N.H. which is what I'm guessing could be a variant that I dug. Just a possibility, since I havn't been able to come up with a better guess. Bram (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 26

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 12:14:39 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Dang it batteries are dead once again. I got 4 on the charger and I only need 2. I'm gonna try to get the pics posted before 3pm. That's some awesome black glass you got downeastdigger. After staring at the base of the ink until I got a headache I still can't read the embossing. I'm not sure if it's symbols or numbers and letters. It looks like 4 X 4 only the 4's are backwards and the X is missing a good portion of the bottom and looks like or could be a V (weird). All three of the ink bases that I dug have a little dimple on the bottom in the same spot. Dang it I wish those batteries were charged already. Are pontil rods swirled? I have a 4" piece of swirled glass thats broken off at both ends. I'm thinking that the rod got to short so they busted it off and tossed it. Anyone have any info on the cornicopia flasks? Swizzle (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 27

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 12:20:44 PM    earlyglass   Posts: 353 Joined: 12/21/2004 Status: offline The "4x4" is known to be embossed on some of the umbrella and cone inkwells from Stoddard. Funny that you see this as well on the bases of the Gibbs Bone Liniment bottles, as I had believed those to have been produced at the Mt Pleasant Glassworks in NY. Not quite sure what the 4x4 means, but your eyesight is fine. There is often a "002" as well. Mike (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 28

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 12:41:40 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Kinda strange to find stoddard glass at a glasshouse that made saratoga mineral spring water bottles don't ya think? So there very well may be a lot of fake stoddards out there? That's what it sounds like to me. Swizzle (in reply to earlyglass) Post #: 29

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 12:57:58 PM    earlyglass   Posts: 353 Joined: 12/21/2004 Status: offline Well, there is no doubt that the lines are very blurred between the Stoddard NH glasshouses and the Mt. Vernon and Mt Pleasant glasshouses of NY. The glass color and consistency is almost identical. Both produced an abundance of utilitarian type bottles. You mention spring waters... both produced an abundance of spring waters as well. Looking at these "larger" quart bottles it is a little easier to tell the difference. Overall, the Stoddard glass comes in mostly amber tones, and I would say that the "light golden amber" color is almost all Stoddard. Most of the upstate NY glass is a darker olive green and somewhat murky. Getting back to the 4x4... I beleive it is used on the base of the GV-2 Success To The Railroad flask from upstate NY as well. I have personally dug cone inks with the 4x4 base at the Stoddard glasshouses. Can you add any information about the NY glasshouses? Have you dug these sites? Just curious, because this stuff can drive you nuts! I may be confusing the "4x4" with the "2x2"... where are my notes!   Mike (in reply to downeastdigger) Post #: 30

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 1:18:10 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline I can't really add much. I only know that it was where they made some of the saratoga mineral spring waters and that its been dug on and off since the 1970's. There isn't much evidence of recent digs and I might be the first serious digger in the spot since the '70's. I also know the shards and melted glass chunks are wide spread over a good acre and probably more. The two deep horseshoe shaped pits acroos the road make me scratch my head as well. There is a well and what maybe foundations or diggers pits in several areas. I couple test holes that I've dug have revealed bricks and wet ash and sometimes glass shards or just bricks shards and glass chunks. The one chunk of glass/limestone that I dug probably weighs 4 lbs. Maybe a byproduct of the furnace? Another thing that gets me about this place is that all the glass is on top of the hill and I have only found a little bit of pottery and very few shards on a slope heading down to the creek. There are a lot of confusing stonewall formations. Some obscured by past diggers. I would really like to meet up with a digger with more experience and go over the area with me to get another point of view. I might be digging a pit where waste glass was tossed and no whole pieces exist. But I know there are old bottles there that the past diggers haven't gotten yet. there has just got to be. The one cornicopia flask dates to 1820/50's. I'm guessing more to the 1850's and the big bottle digging trend didn't start until the 1970's. That give the surrounding forest 120 good years to cover up a pontil hole or two. I'm also wondering about the area privy's? Seems to me a glasshouse that started a community of 100 to 150 family's would have a substantial privy somewhere? It's a big area that needs to be looked at again with the help of pro and semi pro diggers. HELP!!! Swizzle  (in reply to earlyglass) Post #: 31

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 1:44:40 PM    earlyglass   Posts: 353 Joined: 12/21/2004 Status: offline Swizzle, I will tell you this.... the glasshouse sites have (for the most part) been extensively dug. I have had conversations with a digger who dug the Stoddard sites in the 60s for many years. He did find some things, but very few whole bottles. I have spoken to locals who remember flocks of diggers in the 40s and 50s. I know that Herbert Mason and Harry Hall White would dig these sites back in the 20s, and go house to house looking for pieces. These sites always leave me scratching my head, because 20 years later they can look like virgin sites! With all of that said, first I would gather any information from previous diggers. If that is unavailable, just plan a systematic approach. Map out an area, bring 5 gallon buckets, and take the glass out of the ground so it is not redug year over year. If you feel unconfortable taking the glass, scatter it in another area and really confuse future diggers!   Try to look in the "not so obvious" areas. Everyone digs in the furnace area, everyone finds the pile of cullet (glass waste reused for future batches), but look else where. I ventured over to a large rock about 60 feet from the site, and dug. Well, what I found almost broke my heart... it was a small size GW Stone medicine, about 1/3 of it. I found little fragments of the rest scattered about. I would guess that it was thrown from the glass house on to the rock long ago. Oh well, the good thing about digging these sites are the great shards of glass, and none of it is average, it is ALL great glass! Good luck! Mike (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 32

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:34:38 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Thanx for the info earlyglass. I'm thinking about checking some of the more distant cellar holes. Maybe a mile or 2 down the road. Hopefully they will have privy fulls of good glass. Well time to slow down the internet. Here's a bunch of pics. swizzle Attachment (1) (in reply to earlyglass) Post #: 33

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:36:00 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Sorry about the blurry shots. Here's the 4X4 I was telling you about. It's hard to see in the pic. Swizzle Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 34

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:36:54 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline And some more... Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 35

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:38:25 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Is that a pontil rod? This is the pic that you can see is 2 different success to the rr flask. Swizzle Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 36

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:39:42 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline The wagon... Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 37

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:41:06 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Misc. pieces? Maybe Clark & White? Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 38

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:42:08 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Cornicopia piece? Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 39

RE: How Good Are You At ID'ing Shards? - 10/25/2006 2:42:58 PM    swizzle   Posts: 1325 Joined: 3/2/2005 From: Upstate NY Status: offline Urn or vase? Attachment (1) (in reply to swizzle) Post #: 40

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