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RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now?

 
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RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/23/2006 7:52:48 PM   
Gunsmoke47


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/29/2003
From: TEXAS
Status: offline 		Hey Ron, the week after Thanksgiving I was invited to a week long survey on Mackenzie's Indian Wars battle of Palo Duro Canyon. We started this survey back in March. We only got to participate 3 of the scheduled 5 days due to inclimate weather. In the 3 days we amassed about 100 more artifacts but nothing that would knock your socks off. Happy Holidays, Kelley

(in reply to bearswede)
Post #: 81
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/23/2006 8:22:25 PM   
zanes_antiques


Posts: 2027
Joined: 9/3/2006
From: Steubenville, Ohio
Status: offline 		   Don't get me wrong. I don't think all Professional Archeologists are bad. I know the majority are good but it's always the bad ones who we remember the most. They seem to leave that bad taste in your mouth you just can't get out. Kind of like the one quoted in the article we are discussing here.

_____________________________

I buy, sell, barter, and beg....Zane

(in reply to Gunsmoke47)
Post #: 82
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/23/2006 11:43:07 PM   
ConchDigger

 

Posts: 39
Joined: 12/18/2006
From: Key West, Florida
Status: offline 		What I am doing on my digs (i've just done it on my first) is to put together a shadow box for the family who owns the property. Most of the owners I have permission from have owned thier properties for over a century. In the box I put a few of the little bottles, some of the artifacts (like the gold pocket watch), etc, and behind the little cubicals in the background is an enlarged sepia photo of the main house. This is part of the family's history and I cannot tell you how much it means to them. Some of the items will go to the local African American/Bahama Heritage museum for display. I believe having these tangible "things" adds a new dimmension to history that people in the communitty can get more out of than just reading about people, places, events in a book. The things I find will not just sit in the dark somewhere gathering dust. I will post a photo when I get back to town for you guys to see.  

(in reply to zanes_antiques)
Post #: 83
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 12:21:37 AM   
Bottleman


Posts: 851
Joined: 9/3/2004
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I have been watching this thread for a few days now but didn’t post anything. I think you made a good point Kelley. There are a couple things I disagree about with the author though. I believe that the author should have done some more research before saying “Lately, new visitors -- treasure seekers who dig holes…” According to an earlier post, bottle diggers have been digging at the site for over 25 years now. I believe that times are changing and if anyone disturbs the environment, someone will complain about it.
Also in this article you can see that he says bottles sell for 1,000 or more on ebay and that the item’s true value can not be measured in dollars. I have never been to this dump before but from what I have herd it does not date back to the 1850-60 when pontiled bottles were made. By saying a bottles true value can not be measured in dollars you get the idea that it is one of a kind bottle and no duplicates can be found. I also don’t get his point when he says its value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context. Does this also mean that if an aerologist like himself dug it, it would be of no value? I do understand though that to some people a bottle can be priceless if they want it that bad for their collection.

~~Tom

(in reply to subsoil)
Post #: 84
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 3:51:07 AM   
bikegoon


Posts: 671
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Lebanon, Ohio
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tigermaple1855

My biggest problem with archaeology and their digging principles is that it's so secretive and shrouded.  I've seen it here in the US and also over in Greece.  We as spectators cannot get close enough to observe the digs and after everything is dug it goes into storage.  We, as taxpayers fund most of these digs and most of it ends up never seeing the light of day.  If, on every dig they were required to make a public presentation of their findings they would have more support from guys like us.  Dean


Yes, True.

Remember when they raised the Hunley?
The team was so kind as to offer "you must pay to see" subscription, just to see how the work progressed on the hunley.
So yes, much of it is shrouded.
I will have hoped that some real pro's worked on the Hunley, but by the looks of the site they had, and what they were charging to see a very big deal was quite annoying.

I guess when I have bottlecache open again, I will create a gallery of my digs and make visitors pay out the wazoo for it

Of course I would never do that, but it was good to vent.


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A little of everything at http://www.bottlecache.com

(in reply to tigermaple1855)
Post #: 85
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 7:24:36 AM   
bearswede


Posts: 2910
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: western mass
Status: offline 		That's really thoughtful, Brenda... Kudos!!

Ron


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"I LOVE Wolfies!!!!!!!!!!!!"

(in reply to ConchDigger)
Post #: 86
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 7:31:32 AM   
bearswede


Posts: 2910
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: western mass
Status: offline
quote:

I also don’t get his point when he says its value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context.


Hi Tom...

When archeologists excavate, they take the soil down in shallow layers, documenting exact position of each artifact... When a unit is finished, a soil profile is taken and later artifacts can be matched up to the natural or artificial stratigraphy of the site... Without this information, the artifact loses some, perhaps most, of its significance as it relates to human behavior...

Ron


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"I LOVE Wolfies!!!!!!!!!!!!"

(in reply to Bottleman)
Post #: 87
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 7:38:09 AM   
bearswede


Posts: 2910
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: western mass
Status: offline 		Harold...

Here's some info on the Hunley...

http://home.att.net/~JVNautilus/Hunley/Hunleyarchaeology.html

Ron


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"I LOVE Wolfies!!!!!!!!!!!!"

(in reply to bikegoon)
Post #: 88
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 9:51:17 AM   
stonemason

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 9/28/2004
Status: offline 		Wow, a lot of posts on this subject. I wanted to add my 2 cents. Years ago,as a young kid, I was part of an archeological dig in Manchester where an indian village sat. We found all kinds of neat stuff where on of those bridges now sits. I was part of a group from Franklin Pierce College in Rindge NH and was helping out just for fun. I know most of what was found is sitting in boxes,warehoused for no one to see.I parted ways with the so called legitimate archeological professionals a long time ago for a few reasons. Most of them are overeducated snobs who look down on recreational hunters as criminals stealing history,the government guys lie like hell to justify their positions,and a lot of the so called experts will make up "facts"to get their funding for these digs. 40 years later nothing has changed. You cant trust any of them and they should all be challenged at every turn to verify their legal right to keep the rest of us out. Another addition: I changed careers some time ago and became a paramedic. I did a lot of my training in Manchester and had to go into that area on occasion for someone who was ill or injured.The homeless who stay there will tell you that they get flooded out on a pretty regular basis so I doubt any big holes that are there now will be there much longer. That river runs pretty high every spring and cleans the banks up nicely.I am willing to bet the guy raising hell about the dump knows this or should if he has been around there for a while. There is no telling what has come out of the banks and washed away over time. I know I wouldnt eat the fish there though.

(in reply to earlyglass)
Post #: 89
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 10:35:08 AM   
bikegoon


Posts: 671
Joined: 10/2/2006
From: Lebanon, Ohio
Status: offline 		Thanks Ron!

Never saw that page before!


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(in reply to stonemason)
Post #: 90
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 6:17:58 PM   
tigermaple1855

 

Posts: 89
Joined: 10/18/2003
Status: offline 		Perhaps I was a bit misunderstood earlier.  I don't want to volunteer or help out on one of these digs.  Quite frankly I doubt I would have the patience.  What I would like is complete disclosure as to where the digs are taking place, who is in charge and how can I observe if I so wish.  There have been at least 3 digs on Cape Cod in the past 3-4 years.  They were all written up in the newspaper but all the details were kept secret.  The archeologists say this will prevent damageto the sites.  That may well be, but isn't disclosure better.  All these items are ending up in carpboard boxes, in someones cellar, with no follow through.  All I want to do is observe.
DBM

(in reply to bikegoon)
Post #: 91
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/24/2006 10:26:33 PM   
Mainepontil


Posts: 215
Joined: 1/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bearswede

I think you're being very unfair, Joel... His reply sounded honest and sincere to me...

Ron



What I don't like Ron is his general attitude about us bottle collectors (not just diggers)  I don't know of any real archaeologist that respects bottle collectors.  They won't admit it but they believe the collectors are just as guilty as the diggers because they are the ones that drive up the value.   In college I was afraid to mention I was a bottle digger/collector, the professors did not like it one bit.  I'm sure you can agree somewhat there.

So that is the only reason for my dislike of this whole thing.  No matter what we do or say their view of us will not ever change.

Joel

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Dig it NOW....before a housing development is built.


(in reply to bearswede)
Post #: 92
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/25/2006 10:55:31 AM   
swizzle

 

Posts: 1325
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Upstate NY
Status: offline 		I for one would like to see all of the artifacts that are pulled from the ground during a dig. I'm not saying that I'd like to see a play by play as they dig from day to day. With technology as advanced as it is today why can't they use a digital camera to photo every artifact and make a few video's. Whatever is not on display in a museum could easily be put on a webpage for all to see after the dig is over. Why not have a virtual museum of all the artifacts and label each piece to the best of the archeologist knowledge as to what each item is. Maybe then there won't be such a cloud of doubt and uncertainty and we can start changing the opinion of the general publics view of the archeologist. Swizzle

(in reply to Mainepontil)
Post #: 93
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/25/2006 11:35:37 AM   
zanes_antiques


Posts: 2027
Joined: 9/3/2006
From: Steubenville, Ohio
Status: offline 		WOW!!!! Awesome site on the Hunley.

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I buy, sell, barter, and beg....Zane

(in reply to swizzle)
Post #: 94
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 9:26:14 AM   
towhead


Posts: 910
Joined: 12/31/2004
Status: offline 		I'm not an archeologist....But I sure do envy you Bearswede!!!!   I always wanted to be one!   ....had some classes in college to do with anthropology and archeology....  and I can never get enough of local history!    Good Luck to you "guys" in New Hampshire!

_____________________________

J

(in reply to zanes_antiques)
Post #: 95
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 10:17:18 AM   
bttlmark

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/23/2005
From: N.E. Florida
Status: offline
quote:

When archeologists excavate, they take the soil down in shallow layers, documenting exact position of each artifact... When a unit is finished, a soil profile is taken and later artifacts can be matched up to the natural or artificial stratigraphy of the site... Without this information, the artifact loses some, perhaps most, of its significance as it relates to human behavior...
quote:

ORIGINAL: bearswede

quote:

I also don’t get his point when he says its value is lost once the bottle is taken from its context.


Hi Tom...

When archeologists excavate, they take the soil down in shallow layers, documenting exact position of each artifact... When a unit is finished, a soil profile is taken and later artifacts can be matched up to the natural or artificial stratigraphy of the site... Without this information, the artifact loses some, perhaps most, of its significance as it relates to human behavior...

Ron

so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.

(in reply to bearswede)
Post #: 96
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 11:18:12 AM   
Diggerwilly

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/5/2006
Status: offline 		   This may be the most pointless thread on a forum I have ever read.You are bitter because you are not being allowed to dig giant holes on land that you do not have permission to be on.People were being kicked out dumps on private and public land in the sixties and seventies so this is not a new thing.No one in the article mentions new legislation to ban or regulate digging,so why the title?I am not a saint and dig without permission from time to time but I know I am in the wrong.If I am kicked out that is the result of my action,no looking back.What I do not do,is get on the internet,brag of all my finds,how much they are worth,how I dig 20 foot holes in loose ashy fill,and threaten everbody who tells me I am being unsafe.Git R Dug,Nuke that dump,I dig them deep,all catchlines of the artist formerly known as Dirtflicker.For the record I have not been involved in any of the past controversy,and know none of the parties.I have read  back a few months in the post and have seen them all as well as post from the same bunch on other sites.If anything would fuel the archeologists arguement that we are just a bunch of money grubbing,lowlifes, it's your attitudes.Earlyglass is right,I have seen nothing great come from that dump,sure it yeilds bottles that are worth some money but its 90's stuff.Stuff guys earlier diggers gave up on because it was only worth digging to make a few bucks.They left to go find pontils,not because they were "pantywastes".Move on,don't sit and argue in public with them,that's a beauracrat's home field.Go dig some stuff that matters before it is lost,they won't.You live in a state that is plenty old and just because you post more of your finds don't mean other people aren't digging more than you.I have a friend in your neck of the woods and from what I understand New Hampshire and Maine have some of the most liberal Right to Use laws in the country.Diggers,hunters, fisherman,and other outdoorsman use private land freely as long as it is not posted.This sounds crazy to people in most of the country as we would not think of using land unless it is public or our own.Don't screw that up.While I try to convince landowners that what I do is safe,you and your evil twin Dirtflicker are posting pics of 20 ft. holes along with quotes like "if I die in a good dump,yadayadayada."This ignorant approach threatens our hobby more than any overbearing group of archeologists ever will.I hope you don't die but if you do it might screw up my digging so please stop.If you want to dig a 20 foot hole live free or die,but don't broadcast it and not accept others opinions.NOW PLEASE SHUT UP AND GO DIG SOMETHING!!!!!GIT ER DUG!!!!!!!

(in reply to Gunsmoke47)
Post #: 97
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 3:58:56 PM   
bearswede


Posts: 2910
Joined: 9/28/2004
From: western mass
Status: offline
quote:

so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.


That's probably a fair statement... Farther back in time tho, dumps and even  hearths can yield important information...

Ron


_____________________________

"I LOVE Wolfies!!!!!!!!!!!!"

(in reply to bttlmark)
Post #: 98
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 5:28:48 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5175
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: online
quote:

quote:

so in a dump that was burned and dozed from its begining there is no value for an archeologist. It is landfill.


I dont think that is the case, items dont have to be in an undestrurbed strata to be significant. for example ... If you find a piece of pottery that has a recogizable/datable pattern and it has a backmark of a company that was not known to make that type of pottery, that may be of great interest. If you find an item in a geographic location where those items are not expected to be found it may be significant ... say for instance something marked in German in an area where Germans were not thought to have settled.

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 12/26/2006 5:29:40 PM >

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(in reply to bearswede)
Post #: 99
RE: New Hampshire Bans Digging... Starting Now? - 12/26/2006 6:14:50 PM   
frank

 

Posts: 544
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		I will look into getting proper digging permits in the local areas around  that i digg in!I think this wake up call to all  diggers good or bad .  

(in reply to GuntherHess)
Post #: 100
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