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real or fake im not sure

 
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All Forums >> [Bottle Forums] >> Reproduction bottles and jars. >> real or fake im not sure Page: [1]
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real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:15:04 PM   
Bottleboy4419

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		http://cgi.ebay.com/Sealed-1889-Antique-Bitters-Bottle-Label-Cork-Lead-Cap_W0QQitemZ330123026625QQihZ014QQcategoryZ890QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

what do u think?

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:21:37 PM   
RICKJJ59W


Posts: 3668
Joined: 3/8/2007
From: Lehigh Valley US of A
Status: offline 		I would say 100% real ,my friend from New Orleans had a DR J. H. full just like that one, he even tasted it! It didn't cure him haha!

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:28:03 PM   
Bottleboy4419

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		lol nice u have a really daring friend then to wanna drink something that old and drink it and make it less in value

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:37:37 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5157
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline 		what would give you the idea that this could be a fake?  just curious.

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:45:33 PM   
Bottleboy4419

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		well im not very experienced with label bottles and i know that people have access to all different types of labels so i never know i like to bid with confidence..how do u normally tell are there certain bottles that people do and also dont make fake labels for?

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 9:58:25 PM   
RICKJJ59W


Posts: 3668
Joined: 3/8/2007
From: Lehigh Valley US of A
Status: offline 		I can tell just by looking at that bottle that the bottle is real and so is the label, I just may bid on it and drink it, I hope the contents is real  hahaha Burp*

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 10:00:57 PM   
RICKJJ59W


Posts: 3668
Joined: 3/8/2007
From: Lehigh Valley US of A
Status: offline 		who cares about the value its  a  Dr J.H .

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New story added 9/08

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/21/2007 10:15:04 PM   
L C

 

Posts: 1582
Joined: 3/17/2007
From: Ohio
Status: online 		I popped the top on a 1959 bottle of Vichy Water from Cincinnati once, and took a healthy drink of it. Don't ever do that, that stuff will kill you ! I suffered from a bad case of indigestion for a week !

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 7:38:16 AM   
logueb

 

Posts: 1384
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		I may be all wet here, but here's my 1/2 cents worth.  I have several issues with this bottle.

(1) All of the Bimal Hostellers Bitters that I have seen were very dark amber with a very rough surface finish.

(2) The mold seam appears to run too high on this bottle.  Unless my eyes are fooling me, the mold seam appears to be underneath the lead seal.

(3) The 18 fl. oz. disturbs me.  I can't remember seeing this on earlier Hostellers.

(4) The creases on the label are also bothersome to me .  I have never seen those type of creases on original labels.

(5) Was this realy a label?  What does the "This Note Cancelled" Mean?

(6) The label may have contained the word "Unadultrated" on the label,(most of it is missing)  which would have placed it after 1906.  Also the alcohol content is listed.

My opinion is that this is not an original 1889 bottle, but I could be wrong.

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 8:36:06 AM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5157
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From: Frederick Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: logueb

I may be all wet here, but here's my 1/2 cents worth.  I have several issues with this bottle.

(1) All of the Bimal Hostellers Bitters that I have seen were very dark amber with a very rough surface finish.

(2) The mold seam appears to run too high on this bottle.  Unless my eyes are fooling me, the mold seam appears to be underneath the lead seal.

(3) The 18 fl. oz. disturbs me.  I can't remember seeing this on earlier Hostellers.

(4) The creases on the label are also bothersome to me .  I have never seen those type of creases on original labels.

(5) Was this realy a label?  What does the "This Note Cancelled" Mean?

(6) The label may have contained the word "Unadultrated" on the label,(most of it is missing)  which would have placed it after 1906.  Also the alcohol content is listed.

My opinion is that this is not an original 1889 bottle, but I could be wrong.



the 1889 date on the tax cancellation seems to fit the bottle correctly.  It appears to have a tooled lip. The DR has a bar under it instead of dots indicating a later bottle. The medium amber is the typical color for later bottles. The foil seal is difficult to fake. Later bottles with good labels are actually fairly common. This is a pretty poor specimen.
The tax cancelation and wear on the label are tough to fake.

Here is a label from a bottle made after 1906 that has the food and drug notification on it...
http://www.sha.org/bottle/Typing/medicine/hostetterslabel.jpg
Click on photo to magnify , text is on bottom edge of shield.

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 5/22/2007 9:03:18 AM >

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 8:48:28 AM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5157
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bottleboy4419

well im not very experienced with label bottles and i know that people have access to all different types of labels so i never know i like to bid with confidence..how do u normally tell are there certain bottles that people do and also dont make fake labels for?


First question you have to ask is 'does the label match the bottle?' In this case it appears that it does. The embossing should match the label. The label should match the age of the bottle. If its a labeled bottle chances are it wasnt dug so you shouldnt see evidence on the glass that it was ever buried or tumbled. People try to age fake labels but its pretty difficult to get a true old look. Typically fake labels will be mostly whole with maybe some corner tears. Fake labels are not that common in my experience and the ones I've seen were not on common bottles.  You do see some people at flea markets sticking old pharmacy labels on common unembossed bottles but those are pretty obvious. When you see a 1/2 pint flask with a label that says POISON such and such pharmacy you pretty much know someone just stuck that on there.

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 5/22/2007 8:54:08 AM >

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Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

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Post #: 11
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 9:16:09 AM   
epgorge


Posts: 2422
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Not sure of the age but here is an 18 oz. variant of Dr JH




Attachment (1)

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RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 9:17:41 AM   
epgorge


Posts: 2422
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		I often wondered what the groove under the tapered lip was. Now I know.
I picked this up for $9. It looked different and almost cathedral.

The neck is shorter and stubbier than any I had seen before. This measures at 2 inches from the shoulder to the top.
Joel




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by epgorge -- 5/22/2007 9:19:41 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 10:01:56 AM   
logueb

 

Posts: 1384
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Matt and Joel, The more you compare the more you learn.  Did you notice that the alcohol content was higher on the post 1906 bottle?  The other label stated twenty-five percent alcohol, and the post-1906 declares thirty-nine percent. That is interesting.  Does that mean that the earlier label was just an estimate?

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Post #: 14
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 12:00:08 PM   
epgorge


Posts: 2422
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline
quote:

The other label stated twenty-five percent alcohol, and the post-1906 declares thirty-nine percent.


I had never seen the label close up. Thanks Loqueb... I saved the pic and enlarged it to help these old eyes. I loved the archangel battle on the label. Amazing what you can get for a penny.

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Post #: 15
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 12:11:13 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5157
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Did you notice that the alcohol content was higher on the post 1906 bottle? The other label stated twenty-five percent alcohol, and the post-1906 declares thirty-nine percent. That is interesting. Does that mean that the earlier label was just an estimate?


What labels said before the F&D Act could basically be any truth, fiction , or fantasy. After 1906 they had a good bit more chance of being fact. The makers that continued to advertise fiction were systematically put out of business.

Bitters were developed under the idea that people could drink liquor without it actually being called liquor. I suppose it benefitted the seller if the bottle advertised less alcohol that it actually contained to help with the illusion.

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 5/22/2007 12:18:08 PM >

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Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

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Post #: 16
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 12:21:59 PM   
GuntherHess


Posts: 5157
Joined: 12/13/2004
From: Frederick Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Amazing what you can get for a penny


The 1 Cent is the cost of the Tax not the cost of the bitters.
There was a federal tax on patent medicines. I think the bottle was a dollar at the time (I may be wrong) but it was pretty expensive relative to the time.

here is a 4 cent hostetters tax stamp that would have gone over the mouth of the bottle.
http://www.revenuer.com/ebay/6435.jpg

A good history of hostetter
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:M8c2uJMJaMgJ:www.quackwatch.org/13Hx/TM/09.html+hostetter%27s+tax+stamp&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=12&gl=us

The image on the label is St George slaying the dragon.

< Message edited by GuntherHess -- 5/22/2007 12:32:24 PM >

_____________________________

Looking for Frederick Maryland and Dr Fahrney Bottles

2008 Medicine Bottle Price Guide on CDROM
http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/BottleBook2008.htm

email http://www.mattsoldhouse.com/MC/bottles/email.jpg

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Post #: 17
RE: real or fake im not sure - 5/22/2007 1:29:48 PM   
epgorge


Posts: 2422
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Great stuff Matt! Thanks. I have saved it for my virtual files.

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