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epgorge
06-02-2007, 11:24 AM
Picked this up for $5 bucks today... I have no idea what I am doing with repro's but I knew right away it was a repro. The roundness of some of the panels and the lips appearance said repro on it. Plus, it was sitting next to a bunch of clevengers and wheatons.

Anyone know anything about the year of this bottle or how I would/could determine it.

Joel

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/1FBBEDC88D0C4110979BFC53168821A5.jpg

whiskeyman
06-02-2007, 04:53 PM
JOEL...hard ta say for sure from the one pic, but it looks like the real deal to me...Am not familiar with any Pikes Peak repRoes of this type...."type" being: made in Pittsburgh glass houses.
You got a steal for $5. [:D]

cowseatmaize
06-02-2007, 05:29 PM
Looks right to me, even the aqua. Give a detail. Back side, anything in the oval, size? MORE PICS, WE WANT MORE PICS!!!!!
Besides, $5, how can you go wrong. Sell it on ebay as a wheaton for $105.

epgorge
06-02-2007, 05:47 PM
WEll maybe I should go back and get the rest of them. she had a Washington Clevenger, purplish and couple of others including a Jenny Linde.
Joel

epgorge
06-02-2007, 05:55 PM
Guys,

I am rocking the Lakes Region right now. I will post more pics when I get home. I know the lady and will call her tonight to secure the rest if they are still available. I had no idea repros's were that valuable. I see these pikes peaks all the time. There is allot of bubbles through it. The lip is very tooled and drippy. It is wicked whittled!!
It is a qt at least. I will measure it when i get home.
Thanks for the thrill, if even for a short time. Someone here once said, even a blind sow will find a corn cob every once in a while.
Joel
Joel

cowseatmaize
06-02-2007, 05:58 PM
Tooled ain't usually drippy. It sounds like a laid on string, which is what a real one would be.

BRIAN S.
06-02-2007, 06:17 PM
Looks like the real deal to me also. It may have been mixed in with a bunch of repros.
There is a member of this forum that bought a Green Dexter Loveridge Bitters at a church sale ( if I remember correctly ) for I believe 5.00 . She sold it a few months later to a California collector for 10,000.00 . She was not a bottle collector and had no idea what she had.....she just thought it was pretty . I about died when she posted pics of it on the forum and told her story.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/424/EE4B8C26699D4189AEC2E44B4EADE859.jpg

cowseatmaize
06-02-2007, 07:01 PM
Things like that can open a whole new topic of ethical debate. Is it any different to know a repro, not say it and sell for big $$$ than to know it's real and buy it as a thought repro for next to nothing?
Hmmm? I'm thinking someones getting suckered in either circumstance.

See this too.
https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/m-107003/mpage-1/key-/tm.htm#108639

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:37 PM
It does raise many ethical questions. I suppose knowledge is power. I bought it thinking it was a repro and it may turn out to be a real one. If that is the case, I will probably give her more money for it, as I know her.

The question raised brings to mind when I got ripped off, paying $106 dollars for something that was a repro. Nobody wanted to give me my money back. I suppose it all comes out int he wash. I am attempting to contact her but first I want to make sure it is real.

Here are some more pictures. It stands 9 inches tall. The lip does have an applied top.

The bottom is smooth, I suspect a hindge mold (?). There is no line going through the cental mark.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/E26632B44AFD46B5A841B9E5EB7D5CD7.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:38 PM
.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/837D021A86DB4184903CD6C77E5367EF.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:39 PM
lip

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/7E76D7CBCECE4ABD89640E43B077C26A.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:40 PM
.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/068AAB481BA64929B67411AF97E68BEB.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:41 PM
.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/7E0C28E6CF974FC48EED5E0DF7BD730F.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:42 PM
This bottom is what made me think it was a repro.


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/D53C0C485EC04CCC918CB23330CF3C69.jpg

epgorge
06-02-2007, 08:45 PM
Now I wait with bated breath awaiting news it is a win for today. Then I will decide what to do with the seller. She has others. One is a clevengers bros. I think Ben Franklin on it.... she had a darkish Jenny Lind and another one I really thought may be real, it was a cornacopia flask, I believe. It too had the same bottom as this one but it had a line through the middle of the bottom.
Joel

epgorge
06-02-2007, 09:13 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/Pikes-Peak-Ceredo-GXI-36-Aqua-For-Pikes-Peak-Flask_W0QQitemZ170113563856QQihZ007QQcategoryZ891Q QcmdZViewItem

This looks a bit different than the one I have.

cowseatmaize
06-02-2007, 10:50 PM
Pikes Peak has it's own catagory GXI-1 through 54. I still say real. Early Clev's are great too. The 30's pontil stuff is desireable also.

whiskeyman
06-02-2007, 11:34 PM
JOEL...definitely NOT a repRo...but an authentic Pikes Peak. AS for McK#, that is usually based upon the details of the Prospector as most had a similar "Pittsburgh Eagle" embossing on theObverse.
The base mold seam is what I usually/used to call a "hinge mold" seam ...and the flask was held for finishing by a snap case.
GREAT BUY !
Check out the Cornucopia and the Jenny Lind....both could be the real deal. Before buying, take some pix and post em....Maybe we could better advise....

cowseatmaize
06-03-2007, 12:01 AM
Cornicopia was reproduced but not widely. Jennys were. Usually if it has a 2 story building, it's real. Buyt them all for $5 each and I'll give you $10 sight unseen!!! Hows that sound!!!LOL[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]
Oh, plus shipping of coarse.

LC
06-03-2007, 12:31 AM
I have to agree with you Joel, looking at the bottom, that sure looks like a fake pontil to me, but then too, in all my years of collecting, I have never heard fo a repro Pikes Peak. Lord only knows today though, seems everything out there is beong reproduced in one way or another.

cowseatmaize
06-03-2007, 07:57 AM
McKearin list that as base type 1,2 or 3. All were used with at least 1 of the 54 listed.

epgorge
06-03-2007, 08:17 AM
Thanks Whiskey and Coweatmaize,
I must say I am sitting on a cloud over this. Here are a few closer ups of the prospector and the eagle. So I am to understand this is not the ceredo eagle flask? It is a "Pittsburg Eagle"?

I guess the next step is to price it and maybe sell it and then give the lady some more money.

Joel

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/421FD63F28024A4FB65E24C4FCE53DB5.jpg

epgorge
06-03-2007, 08:19 AM
the eagle...

Would you say this is ice blue or green aqua?
Joel

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/E46AE3A9E8D3441E928B6CDBB55569C3.jpg

epgorge
06-03-2007, 08:20 AM
Top, looks like there are chips but it feels smooth. Tumbled?

Joel

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/DBECBB86E2BA482FBB3624C03E519544.jpg

epgorge
06-03-2007, 08:30 AM
Now about ethics......

I just made the blunt comment, I would sell it and give half the money to the lady I bought it from. Then price and sell her others and share the money with her, if she wishes.

My wife hit the ceiling. She thinks I am attempting to be honest to a fault. I must be slowly becoming my father, as he was honest to a fault.

She feels the lady parted with an object she had no idea about. Is happy to have made a five dollar deal and it is a done deal, and she won't even think about it again.

Antique dealers wouldn't do that, she feels. They/we have thousand of hours of research into their trades and that is valuable.

Then she started citing all the bottles I bought, way over priced and hit me with the old adage; "let the buyer be aware".



https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/7B71ADC4ED7A45AA904D86C562E217FD.jpg

cowseatmaize
06-03-2007, 08:50 AM
GXI-7 seams to be the only quart that's also Pikes Peak without "FOR". The base is listed different but it may just not be showing the same on yours. It doesn't mean that much anyway. I still say real!

epgorge
06-03-2007, 09:55 AM
I still say real

That is great news. Thanks!!

Any idea on value of that bottle? What about color? It looks ice blue.

So you are saying, even the Clevenger Brothers are valuable?

Joel

cowseatmaize
06-03-2007, 10:04 AM
It's shown as common but if you point out the base variation (if there is one) probably in the $75-125 range for clarity and boldness. It does have a nice strike.
The 1930's Clevs with pontils tend to do fairly well. It's hit or miss and color is important. From what I've seen in the past folks like the amber and cobalt.
If your gettin em for $5 get em all and show them to us. The one you have already paid for them and I suspect more real ones. I'd love to have even a fake corn-urn.

LC
06-03-2007, 03:50 PM
I hope your assessment of its authenticity is correct, as I have said, I have never seen or heard of a repop Pike's Peak Flask before, but I have also never seen a historical flask with that kind of a bottom.

epgorge
06-04-2007, 04:48 PM
I went back and bought the Jenny Linde (Fislerville glass works with a factory embossed on it). Purple with a smoothed or iron pontil, 10 1/4 inches high. drippy lip. The one side has a picture of Jenny, with six leafs on the left bottom and five leafs on the right (our right). The other is a picture of the factory with barrels and maybe a dog in front of the building. The embossment is bold with the exception of the Jenny lind and the Fislerville...



The other flask is an aqua, has a picture of an eagle with stars above it on one side and grapes on the other. Open pontil on the bottom. stands 8 inches tall. Aqua


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/6A9FA86F6FAB4B719681EFE807141B49.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 04:50 PM
bottom of Jenny... not sure if this is a purple or a puce!


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/B07263C8A6994E9EA59669738B74EA91.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 04:51 PM
eagle flask... funny looking aqua... like it is bathroom window glass.... hard to see through.


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/B311DFBDB6C84FFD911DE2A488694237.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 04:56 PM
The clevengers was an amythist and was purchased at the show for $5.

The cornucopia went for $5 bucks too. That one may have been real as well.

bottom of aqua

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/FAAD3721A70244859CBFEBA7597E64D8.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 04:57 PM
it is a very nice lip.


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/9D247CDE4EF94193BC8253F2631EB173.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 05:41 PM
Here are some more pictures of jenny lind to help identify color, neck (which I know is important) detail of the lady...

This one shows the color and whittle a bit better.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/6CF5B2E8FBD449EB97A7A9BE7CF772BB.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 05:43 PM
The neck.. it tapers down but ohh sooo gradually.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/ADE685DDE9A0430ABB5BA1C0A19BE539.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 05:45 PM
full view in light

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/48B7CA17C12B43F5A16A090ED7D0EFAC.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 05:47 PM
the two side by side...

I like them even if they aren't original, which now I wonder about the Jenny Lind. She bought them from an elderly lady's estate sale. The clevenger and wheaton threw me off to think they were all repro.

[:)][;)]

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/C0065AD7FCAD462C979607FB77AC99B7.jpg

cowseatmaize
06-04-2007, 06:01 PM
I'd say the Jenny is an early Clev, nice color. Here's the base of a UNION Clasped Hand and Cannon.W. Frank & Sons Pitts.

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/2920/A55D80B42DFE478583B8079B0F1BA9E1.jpg

Have you tried the Polar Blueberry, it's good.

epgorge
06-04-2007, 06:12 PM
That is more what I would expect a smooth bottom out of theis era to look like. That is a hinge mold?

Would this bottle have a CB or other mark on it somewhere?

Joel

cowseatmaize
06-04-2007, 06:23 PM
I still get confused about that. The base drawings in the book indicate type 1,2 and3. I always though a hinge mold to be a line straight accross the base. Try the blueberry!

BRIAN S.
06-04-2007, 06:37 PM
Not all CB's were marked with CB . I would guess it would be on the base somewhere.
It is definetly a repro . But still a GREAT window bottle for 5.00 !!!

epgorge
06-04-2007, 06:41 PM
Thanks Cows and Brian. I like and will definately keep it. What about the Eagel /Grape, aqua... sould I place it with my reproduction collection (just started)?
Epgorge

BRIAN S.
06-04-2007, 06:56 PM
It sure looks like a repro from your pics .
Maybe you could post a few more pics .

epgorge
06-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Maybe you could post a few more pics

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/1A07F6B61B4347D8B54206F0E63C519E.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 07:21 PM
*

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/C73966BC5A644B62A37BE4F2CB28E566.jpg

epgorge
06-04-2007, 07:22 PM
I didn't buy it the first time becuase of the color and the neck seems just too perfect for the era. It does have a nice jagged open pontil on the bottom.
Joel

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/7353/73D7105901BE49C4BF93CBFF4335D504.jpg

cowseatmaize
06-04-2007, 08:02 PM
Don't quote me here but I think the small deep recess on the base was also clevenger. Later thay added CB or even the full name sometimes. I can't find that Clevenger article I'm working from memory from. My memory is, well, I forget what it is.

earlyglass
06-04-2007, 08:08 PM
The Pikes Peak is certainly real, but the Jenny Lind and Eagle / Grapes are both reproductions.

epgorge
06-04-2007, 08:10 PM
I think the small deep recess on the base was also clevenger
Do you mean the kick up inside the Jenny Lind? Where can I study up on repro's? Thanks guys! I appreciate the help.
Joel

epgorge
06-04-2007, 08:17 PM
Thank you Mike,

Do you know which Jenny Lind this is? Is it the eagle or the prospector bottle? Any idea on color or value?
Joel

epgorge
06-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Here is a great story about a fellow who bought a "scare crow" that turned out to be the ships figural on the prow. It was of a bust of Jenny Lind (1820-1887). She was the equivalent to the Beatles during her era as a swedish singing star. There werre six ships named after her. Good, enjoyable reading here...
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:ajjBqFWDs1AJ:www.scandinavica.com/culture/history/jenny_lind.htm+jenny+lind+eagle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

Here is another of the marketing of her bust figurals on literally everything.
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:pA56VWpESJUJ:www.eraoftheclippershi ps.com/nightingale.html+jenny+lind+eagle&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

earlyglass
06-04-2007, 08:35 PM
Joel,

I haven't looked up your Pikes Peak, but it is real. It is most likely a common one in aqua, probably $100 or so. The other flasks are repros. A good place to start when dealing with flasks is the "American Bottles & Flasks and their Ancestry" book from Helen McKearin and Kenneth Wilson. It is the most comprehensive guide for flasks and has great information on the glasshouses, techniques and characteristics. Anyways, there is a chapter on reproductions as well. Your Jenny Lind is a reproduction of the GI-107 and your Eagle Grapes is a reproduction of the GII-55. They are probably Clevenger pieces, possibly Czechoslavakian (spelling?)... well, I hope that helps.

Mike

cowseatmaize
06-05-2007, 09:41 AM
Do you know which Jenny Lind this is? Is it the eagle or the prospector bottle? Any idea on color or value?

In the calabash they all had a glass house on the reverse, I'm not sure what your asking. Repro or not the Jenny is about 75 yrs old and almost an antique in the US.

http://www.bottlebooks.com/clevenge.htm

http://www.bottlebooks.com/reproduc.htm

Note on this one the Pikes Peak. It couldn't fool very many people.
http://www.bottlebooks.com/Repros/More%20Repos/more_reproductions.htm

epgorge
06-05-2007, 09:49 AM
I'm not sure what your asking

That is because I screwed up the question.
I meant the Pikes Peak when I said Jenny Lind.

I am interested in collecting CB's now. I sold a beauty of a chestnut flask of theirs for $17 on the bay. I saw a variation of it in your link you provided. Thanks! [:)]

Now I wish I had kept it.

I like the Jenny Lind, now that I have it. Researching it here on the forum, it looks like it was a chec made CB. Did CB contract with that the Chec's way back then?

whiskeyman
06-05-2007, 07:08 PM
The Pike's Peak has a "post bottom mold seam"...( what I used ta call a "hinge mold seam", before I got eddicated on the BLM Historic Bottle Site...

http://www.sha.org/bottle/bases.htm[/align] [/align]Clevenger Bros didn't collaborate with the Czechs ta make Jenny Linds...The Czechs made their own repRo ( usually seen with an extra-long neck), and Clevenger Bros made another type...[/align] [/align] [/align]

whiskeyman
06-05-2007, 07:11 PM
The Eagle/Grapes flask is Clevenger....not sure about the Jenny....Could be Clevenger or Czech...Have ta examine "hands on" to tell for sure or compare with a known Clevenger Jenny.

tigue710
08-18-2007, 12:13 PM
very nice score on the pikes peak, it is a Mckearin GXI-7 - attributed to Pittsburgh The base is a "key mold" of which there are a few different types. One type is notched, the other rounded. A key mold is similar to a hingmold and in fact worked the same way, (with two pieces hinged at the bottom), except the key mold was notched in the center, to help the mold fit better and to create a smoother base to help the bottle stand better. The rounded key mold is very similar to a post mold but on close inspection you will be able to follow the mold line across the bottle going halfway around the circle and over to the other side.

the lip I'd bet is juat an imperfection...

The other two bottles are both repros, the wash. is a Clevenger and the Jenny Lind is most likely a Chec.

tigue710
08-18-2007, 12:25 PM
here are the two types of key mold.

The first leaves a circular depression in the base like your pikes peak, and like a post mold, the difference being the the post mold will have a mold line the entire circumference of the circle.

The second you will see the notched mold line, and leaves a flat base with no depression, most of the time. Most of these notched types of keymolds are from the open pontil era so often the pontil covers the mold lines.


https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/8276/6D1C443BD1BE47708547CF14FE29D50C.jpg