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Gunsmoke47
01-16-2004, 10:22 PM
Hi ya'll, I dug this different bottle today and was wanting some info on it. It's 9 5/8" tall with a 2 1/2" diameter. Looks like a wine or spirits bottle with a 1 1/2" recess up in the bottom. I see no vertical seem lines but looks like there might be one around the circumference below the neck. The neck sits on it a little crooked. What was in it, can you date it, and is it pretty common? Thank you, Kelley

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/1156/Pn37669.jpg

Gunsmoke47
01-16-2004, 10:23 PM
Also, it is a dark green

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/1156/Hf99910.jpg

Harry Pristis
01-16-2004, 11:58 PM
Looks like a classic Bordeaux wine shape. This is a traditional shape still in use. The recess (called a "kick-up") in the bottom has a function: it creates a narrow, circular groove in the interior of the bottle in which sediment is trapped and concentrated.

Here are two classic wine bottle shapes.

---------Harry Pristis

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/524/Lj23151.jpg

oz-riley
01-17-2004, 03:52 AM
This bottle looks like a Cognac bottle, they were used for a long time, your bottle looks around the 1870's to 1890's in age from the lip.
Some of these have Glass Seals on the shoulder and they are very sought after by collectors.
Unfortunately the ones with no Glass seal are relatively common.

Thanks
Chris

Gunsmoke47
01-17-2004, 10:40 AM
Thanks guys. I bookmarked your page Harry. Hey Chris, were the glass seals embossed with the makers name or trademark or what? Thanks, Kelley

Gunsmoke47
01-17-2004, 10:42 AM
By the way, Happy Birthday Chris.

Harry Pristis
01-17-2004, 12:00 PM
I don't think you mean cognac, Kris. Cognac is a brandy made in a restricted area in the west of France on the north bank of the Gironde in the region of the city of Cognac.

Armagnac, a region on the south bank of the Gironde, produces a notable brandy known by that name. But, there are many brandies made across France.

There is no traditional cognac brandy bottle form AFAIK. Van den Bossche has no such listing, though he does figure side-by-side a "Bordeaux style" and a "Burgundy style" bottle each from 1760-70.

That is not to say that a bordeaux-form or even burgundy-form bottles were never used to bottle a Cognac brandy. The French are as pragmatic as anyone else: if there is no traditional bottle, use what is at hand.

If a bottle has a seal embossed "cognac," I might call it a "cognac bottle." Or, it could be merely a bottle from a chateau in Cognac -- a geographical reference. Otherwise, I likely wouldn't know what the bottle contained originally.

Would you call any of these three bottles a "cognac"? Two of the three seals are embossed "Medoc" which is a region on the south bank of the Gironde. I cannot say what these bottles originally contained beyond "wine" or something distilled from wine.

I hope this helps.
-----------Harry Pristis

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/524/Vt57346.jpg

oz-riley
01-17-2004, 11:30 PM
Yes Herbert, I do mean Cognac!
Here we use the term Cognac to describe this type of bottle. Most of the bottles found here which have been imported from Europe, that have been dug with labels still intact have been Cognac bottles.
Cognac was one of the most popular brandy's of the 1850's and a lot of other makers called there Brandy Cognac to boost sales.
The same way makers all over the world make Champagne, just because it is not made in the Champagne region does not mean it is not sold as Champagne.
If you want to get technical Bordeaux is a region in France, if a bottle has a label or a seal embossed "Bordeaux," you should call it a "Bordeaux bottle." Otherwise, you cannot know what the bottle contained originally.
The Bordeaux that is pictured below is still a brandy bottle just brandy from the Bordeaux Region and here it is still referred to as a Sealed Cognac.

People in different parts of the world will call generic and common bottles by different names.
For example you have a black and white picture above which is what you or your source calls a Burgundy bottle. Here we call these bottles ring seal beers, however they are a generic bottle that held everything from Drinking water in Outback Western Australia to Tomato Sauce, we found a labelled Tomato sauce one in Melbourne, opps sorry I am using the wrong term again, that would be a Tomato Ketchup!

Thanks
Chris / Kris



Pictures from Ross Roycrofts, Australian Bottle Price Guide

oz-riley
01-17-2004, 11:32 PM
Sealed Cognac's

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/91/Ca80633.jpg

oz-riley
01-17-2004, 11:33 PM
Sealed Cognac's

https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/91/Rp43245.jpg

oz-riley
01-18-2004, 12:01 AM
Thanks for the b,day wishes Gunsmoke47.

Chris

Harry Pristis
01-18-2004, 02:27 AM
Hello, Chris . . .

Sorry that I mis-spelled your name -- just a lapse. I am not interested in anything here but coming to an understanding of terms.

Thank you for posting the illustrations from your book. I think that you have answered my questions with these illustrations.

--My bottles would be considered "sealed cognac" bottles in OZ even though they are not from the Cognac Region, but from the Medoc Region.

--There is no traditional cognac bottle shape. (How then did you identify Kelley's bottle as a "cognac"??)

It is clear from the illustrations that "sealed cognac" is a regionalism with an inherent contradiction. The French didn't make cognac in Medoc; by definition, they couldn't. They did make brandy which is what these bottles may have contained. All cognac is brandy, but not all brandy is cognac.

Remember that what we are talking about are traditional bottle shapes that have endured for hundreds of years. There are traditional shapes for bordeaux, for burgundy, and for champagne (not to mention the German wine bottles). There is no traditional shape for brandy in general, nor for cognac in particular.

I'm satisfied with that understanding.

Happy Birthday!

--------Harry Pristis