View Full Version : Premium Waters odd pontil

SC pontil collector
10-23-2011, 05:04 PM
I think that the pontil on this bottle is an iron pontil, but it sure looks weird to me.
sc pontil collector


SC pontil collector
10-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Here is the bottle.
sc pontil collector


10-23-2011, 06:57 PM
Almost looks like a sticky ball pontil

SC pontil collector
10-23-2011, 09:02 PM
Do you think it is a sticky ball pontil. This came from a family member who isn't with us anymore and he didn't know what to make of it either.
sc pontil collector

RED Matthews
10-23-2011, 09:25 PM
This is to ask both Tigue710 and SC pontil collector; The questions of punty rod empontilled marks has been in my studies for a Blog of Coverage for at least eight or ten years. I have read a lot of books and looked at a lot of pictures of pontil marks here on the FORUM. Sometimes I think I am ready to put out my material and then some one comes along with something different.like sticky ball pontil. I have studied many actual punty rods and realize that they were shaped to the push-up and often had a centering ball tip on the end of the push-up; to help the bottlemakers assistant get the punty placed in the center of the bottles bottom diameter. I have studied the materials used to give different pontil marks different appearance. These have been graphite paste, red lead paste and white lead paste. The punty rods that were coated with these lubricants were then dipped in mold iron powder to create one type of pontil mark.
They were some times dipped in glass particles and dust that was placed on the hot bottles base. And in many cases these lubricant punties were dipped in sand for the sticking agent. Some heated punty rods were even dipped in the molten glass crucible to pick up hot metal for the contact. The historic writings that I have read seldom answer all the questions. I have talked with instructors at the Corning Museum and several of their staff, but I have not found enough answers to put this blog all together. Any suggestions or advise is always welcome. RED Matthews

10-24-2011, 04:30 AM
Red, a sticky ball pontil is a collectors term used to describe the process you explained where a pinty rod was dipped in glass shards or sand to adhere to the base of the bottle. There's a lot of gray though as to how it was done exactly. There is also a solid iron pontil that was not used with paste or the disc pontil. Not a lot is known about these techneics although there are some slight variations in the mark left.

Sc, it's hard to determine from the picture but after taking a closer look I don't see any fragments of glass inside the ring of fragments, which you find with a sticky ball pontil. I also don't see the typical push up seen with graphite pontils which sometimes leave some frags of glass around the edge I'm sure your familiar with... I've seen tumbled bottle with the graphite cleaned off and just the ring left, but this one looks different... Ther was an early method of empontiling used in the states I've only seen on early large bottles that is similar to a solid iron bar pontil and the sticky ball type pontil but just leaves the ring on the outside edge exactly as you have here. It's usually refered to as a sticky ball pontil but in researching it i found it was made with a slightly different technique. I haven't quite figured it out and a few experts I've talked to have over looked it previously since the difference is very slight. That said no I don't think it is a sticky ball pontil, but it does look to be one of the pontil marks that is refered to as a sticky ball pontil...

SC pontil collector
10-24-2011, 11:11 AM
Thank you Red and Tigue for researching the pontil on this bottle. It has always seemd odd to say the least.
I talked with my sister, her husband dug the bottle years ago. She remembers that it was at the bottom of a 8ft privy along with some broken o/p meds. Also came out an iron pontil Premium Waters taper top soda fully intact along with more I/Ps and smooth base bottles.
She still has the I/P Premium Waters.
All the bottles were tumbled.
I am glad that this forum was added because this bottle is going to an auction house pretty soon.
Thanks again,
sc pontil collector

10-24-2011, 03:00 PM
SCPC can you take a pic of this more head on with the flash on, I can't really tell exactly what I'm seeing in the first pic....Jim

SC pontil collector
10-24-2011, 03:56 PM
Hi Jim,
Here is a picture taken directly at the pontil.


10-24-2011, 04:00 PM
Thanx that's much better.....

SC pontil collector
10-24-2011, 04:09 PM
Hi Red,
I just remembered seeing a pontil rod for iron pontils. It was round were it would connect to the bottle.
I was wondering if they would also use this type of pontil rod for sand and sticky ball pontils?

10-24-2011, 06:22 PM
It really doesn't look like a cleaned iron pontil. Possibly they just used something on hand as a fluke? Sticky and sand pontils can be found made with blow pipe, rounded punty(like iron pontils), solid iron bar and even what looks like large hollow pipe as seen on large demijohns occasionally. Each leaves a slightly different mark... They will sometimes show up on bottles that do not exhibit the type of pontil usually as if it was a quick fix.

It's odd the mark is not round... I think you have some type of fluke there wether it was in the anealing oven to long or they had trouble with punty... It does look very much like the abnormal sticky ball pontil I was researching a few years back... Something I should delve back into

SC pontil collector
10-24-2011, 07:03 PM
WoW!!!!! You guys know your stuff! I told my sister what is going on with the bottle and she is very interested to know just what type of pontil it is.
I am glad that I posted it on the forum/ It was going this week to an auction house, but I think we'll wait to see what becomes of all this.
Thank you everyone for all the research you're doing.

SC pontil collector
10-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Hey everyone,
I was wondering if anyone has figured this one out yet? My sister is getting squirrelly about this one. Its been slated to go to auction pretty soon.

10-29-2011, 03:33 AM
I think there might not be an answer... It isn't quite any of the usual suspects although it does appear to be a pontil... Looks to me most likely to be some type of fluke in the empontiling process, I couldn't without a doubt say it's a Sand chip or sticky ball pontil, it's just not quite there. Funny cause today my bud dug a blue soda base with a very similar looking pontil...

SC pontil collector
10-29-2011, 09:21 AM
Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread.
Everybody in our family always thought it was a funny looking iron pontil.
We never thought about it being a sticky ball pontil, so it was interesting to hear what members of the forum thought it might be.
We'll let the auction house decide what to call it.