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View Full Version : Best description of a pontil... contest?



cowseatmaize
12-11-2011, 12:59 PM
I'd like to post this to the top or ask Roger to place it by the title. Include what is not a pontil such as a round base scar but mold seams go to the top.
My hope is to have people be able to know what one is, rather than ask "is this one".
Short and sweet please. You will be immortalized on AB-N, just not by name (unless requested).
I figure some are better at descriptions than I am.
Are you?[:)]

RED Matthews
12-11-2011, 02:00 PM
Hi cowseatmaize. I have got a big collection of saved pontil pictures, I have started to put together a blog on my homepage covering some descriptions regarding the use of different empontilling methods. Things in life have kept me from completing the project - but I can't help thinking that a collective coverage would be of some help to someone. Please advise. RED Matthews

cowseatmaize
12-11-2011, 02:27 PM
It sounds like a project that's worth having help, if I can I'd be glad to Red.
What I'm asking for is a short description to, say a subtitle kind if thing. Just a very basic this is and this is not a pontil.
I'm with so far that;
A pontil is a round protruding piece of glass made by the excess glass that was attached to a punti rod in some cases. A punti was a long iron bar or tube, possibly the plowpipe itself but more likely not. It could also be a bare iron, glass chip or sand covered flat, round or rectangular rod to hold the bottom of the object for finishing the lip, neck or other parts of the vessel. This would not leave a protruding piece of glass but a rough surface or a color black, reddish black and some have said white reside.
It shouldn't be seen on an iten that has mold seams that run from the bottom all the way to the top. Those were most likely made by machine and are cut of scars by those machines and are are sometimes termed an "Owens ring".
Also earlier milk, soda, canning jars and others will have what was known as a blow back scar. Smaller than an Owens ring but easily mistaken for a pontil because of the size.
Etc Etc.
See what I mean, I'm looking for short and sweet, I just cant say it.

RED Matthews
12-11-2011, 03:49 PM
Well you included a lot of things that are included in my review notes.
I have bottles with the Owens shear cut off mark in the circle on the bottom. I have white empontilled marks on the bottom which I attribute to the use of white lead past on the end of the punty rod. I have coverage on the boxed materials for their addition to punty rod ends. It is also obvious that the shape and sizes of punty rod ends are relative to the weight of the parison that has to be held on the punty. I will try to put my segments together this week and see how it looks. The basics have been covered in a couple books but the main one is too expensive for most collectors. I am referring to the Van Den Bosche book. I will have to hunt mine down for reference material. More later. RED M.

cowseatmaize
12-11-2011, 04:27 PM
I am referring to the Van Den Bosche book. I keep hoping that will come down like McKearin/ Wilson AB&F&TA. It may be another 10 years so I might, if I get the cash shell out $100. Fantastic book from what I've heard. I've never seen a copy.

old.s.bottles
12-12-2011, 03:15 PM
You might want to mention that pontil rods were used on the bottles to hold it while the lip was being applied or formed. from what I understand, the invention of the snapcase mold made using a pontil rod obsolete as the lip of the bottle could be formed without taking it out of the mold. Right???

AntiqueMeds
12-12-2011, 06:23 PM
a "pontil" or "punty" is an iron rod used to hold blown glass.

seems like what you are describing is the mark or scar left on the glass by the punty which is erroniously being called a "pontil"
I would consider pontil scar or pontil mark acceptible terms.

AntiqueMeds
12-12-2011, 06:34 PM
You might want to mention that pontil rods were used on the bottles to hold it while the lip was being applied or formed. from what I understand, the invention of the snapcase mold made using a pontil rod obsolete as the lip of the bottle could be formed without taking it out of the mold. Right???

The snap-case really had nothing to do with the mold. It was a tool that replaced the pontil rod, also called a spring punty, among other things. It held the bottle using a clamp device without having to be attached to the glass. That saved a lot of time since they no longer needed to break the bottle off the pontil rod. Probably decreased final bottle damage too since a certain percent of bottles didnt survive detachment of the pontil rod "de-pontilling?[;)]"

old.s.bottles
12-12-2011, 07:00 PM
Thanks for clearing that up, I was clearly mistaken...[8D]

RED Matthews
12-12-2011, 07:25 PM
You might want to mention that pontil rods were used on the bottles to hold it while the lip was being applied or formed. from what I understand, the invention of the snapcase mold made using a pontil rod obsolete as the lip of the bottle could be formed without taking it out of the mold. Right???

There is a snap case that is used instead of a pontil attachment for tooling the finish on a blown bottle. I am not sure about the snapcase mold being a complete unit of anything. At the National Bottle Museum they have a neat snap case for the SARATOGA pints. RED Matthews

AntiqueMeds
12-12-2011, 07:56 PM
one type of snap case ...
http://www.sha.org/bottle/Bases/snapcasebottle.jpg

j.dinets
08-16-2012, 11:15 PM
Some early quatrefoil pontils can be very strange looking also

RED Matthews
08-17-2012, 01:40 PM
Some early quatrefoil pontils can be very strange looking also

Well j.dinets; Please fill us in. That is a word that hasn't made it to my glossary of glass making terms. RED Mathews

j.dinets
08-17-2012, 11:47 PM
My understanding is that they were made by a pontil rodwith four narrow ends. There is a good diagram on page 29 at http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/doc . The reason I said they can be strange is that I dug one up in Charleston, S.C. that only had the 4 deep inividual depressions in the center with no outer scarring, and came out of a 1770 - 1800 privy. I read one source that said it was a way of taking away stress, and distortion from the outer wall of the bottle. The bottle I dug was a blackglass cylinder.

epackage
08-18-2012, 12:36 AM
Your link is NO GOOD...

epackage
08-18-2012, 12:43 AM
Here you go Red...

The iron pontil scar is the result of using a bare iron pontil rod with an appropriate shaped tip or head which was heated red hot and directly applied and fused to the base of the bottle to be held. There was no glass added (like the glass-tipped pontil rod) or remaining (like using the blowpipe for a pontil) on the iron tip of this type pontil rod. Like the other pontil rod types, this one was probably removed by sharply tapping the rod near the attachment point. The iron deposits which form the iron pontil mark are very small fragments or residue from the tip of the bare iron pontil rod itself. Evidence that the tip of the iron rod was patterned is sometimes seen in the mark left behind. Other iron pontil scars can show evidence of a rod with a four quadrant head, i.e. a quatrefoil, and many other shapes. These type rods were also used to form the push-up in the base of some bottles.



https://www.antique-bottles.net/upfiles/10927/35DFE4CBB9FC4E0881972A8F7784FB37.jpg

epackage
08-18-2012, 12:48 AM
ORIGINAL: epackage

Your link is NO GOOD...

This was not meant to be a negative comment, but as I read it someone might think it was, I was just pointing out the link didn't work....sorry

j.dinets
08-18-2012, 02:31 AM
I didn't take it in a negative sense. I just thought RATS![:'(],(or words similar to that ). I tested this link so it should work . http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/docs/2_EACG_pages%2021-81.pdf .I saw the quatrefoil pontil you listed, but the one I dug had 4 deep impressions next to each other with no metal residue at all, but again this was a circa 1800 privy at the latest.

RED Matthews
08-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Wow epackage, That is the type of information that is needed in a blog on specific glass making information for people to absorb with understanding. Thanks RED M.

RED Matthews
08-18-2012, 10:24 AM
Thanks to both of you for the information kick around. It is rewarding to my cause anyway.
RED M.

bne74honda
11-20-2012, 09:40 PM
This is a terrific idea! I have seen a number of different pontil marks and many base marks that people had mistaken for pontils. I've learned a bit about this process but not enough - this thread is great.

Brian