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View Full Version : Earliest Style of Pontil Scars on Black Glass ?????



bottlerarities
12-21-2013, 12:49 AM
Somewhere over the past few years, I read information discussing the earliest pontil scar styles on black glass going back to circa 1630-1680 or so. It was something about the differences between the sand pontils used in the production of early English onion bottles and the pontils used in even earlier shaft and globe bottles. There was something of the differences that were present between the S&G and early English onion pontil scars, but for the life of me I have been unable to find that information or article again. Would anyone here happen to know what I am referring to, and perhaps direct me to that information again ? Thanks in advance for any assistance.........

fer_de_lance
12-21-2013, 08:19 PM
I've read that the many of earlier S&G had smaller circular broken glass scars that again appear on some bottles produced in eighteen century compared to the big sand scars of the late 1600's and 1700's.

fer_de_lance
12-21-2013, 10:32 PM
quoted from Cosbert.com-Notice the pronounced pontil scar that was present on most English shaft and
globe bottles between c.1650-1690 and then virtually disappeared. English onion
and mallet bottles between c.1690 to c.1740 carried predominately sand pontil
scars. However, rough disc pontil scars were revived on English bottles from the
mid-18th to early 19th centuries

bottlerarities
12-22-2013, 10:03 AM
I found an old file of information along with mention of what I was looking for on one of the bottle description pages at Cosbert.com talking about pontil scar styles prior to later Shaft and Globe and onion forms. While it has been generally believed that the earliest forms of English black glass were exclusively found with sand pontil scars, evolving later to open blow pipe or closed glass rod pontil scars on continental or "Dutch" onion bottles, some students of black glass evolution had made note of the sometimes subtle differences in the pontil scars on the earliest styles of Shaft and Globe bottles, generally those produced during the first few decades after the initial introduction of black glass and the first somewhat standardized design of Shaft and Globe bottle circa 1630. These earliest pontil scars differed in appearance from the slightly later sand pontil scars by a near absence of any indication of sand actually being used on the pontil or appearing within the pontil scars on those particular bottles. Instead, these earliest black glass pontil marks consisted of an obvious large circular pontil which shows significant "roughing" of the pontil face itself, presumably done to increase the effective surface area of the pontil, thereby also increasing its contact area with the bottom flat base or kick up of the bottle itself. The term now given to these earliest pontil marks or scars found almost exclusively on the earliest Shaft and Globe bottle styles is the "rough disc pontil scar", which was then abandoned and disappeared almost completely a short time later in favor of the "sand pontil" which used a coating of molten or near molten sand between the bottle base and actual pontil face. This would have increased the surface area between the pontil and bottle to an even higher and more desirable level of adhesion while the lip and string were finished. The earliest appearance of the Shaft and Globe (proper) is generally thought to have occurred some time around circa 1630 A.D., with transitional styles between the S&G and earliest "onion" styles appearing sometime between circa 1680 and 1695, with the onion type bottles replacing the Shaft and Globe bottles almost entirely by the turn of the century circa 1700. For the benefit of the separation of early stage and late stage Shaft and Globe bottles, differentiated by the use of the "rough disc pontil" and the later "sand pontil", the "rough disc pontil" appears to have been used primarily from the first appearance of the Shaft and Globe around 1630 thru the middle S&G period around 1660, at about which time the use of the "rough disc pontil" was abandoned almost entirely in favor of the sand pontil. Some very few and extremely rare "proto" Shaft and Globe forms are known and identified by their "rough disc pontil scars" on nearly flat bases (as opposed to later more deeply pushed up bases), along with the nearly bulbous ROUND shape of the main body, a somewhat medium neck length, and a more simply applied flat or squared lip string (possibly incompletely finished ?) and minimally worked or flared internal lip as opposed to the later outwardly flared lip and finished "pluto ring" style lip ring, which style was generally established early on in the production of Shaft and Globe types, and carried over throughout the S&G period and into the very earliest Onion periods. Later onion styles began to show somewhat wider flares in their internal lips, and less precise wrapped and overlapping "lip strings" that generally appear to remain in an unfinished state in comparison to the earliest "pluto ring" style which showed a much more obvious attention to finishing and detail with little or no indication of overlapping glass within the ring. Variations in the glass materials used in the earliest "proto" black glass through the Shaft and Globe and into early onion styles range from very saturated shades of medium dark to lighter olive green, and green-amber to stronger amber overtones within the colors of the glasses used. As the Shaft and Globe period progressed and evolved into the various Onion styles, on into later transitional forms leading up to and beyond variations of the mallet, "squat", long necks, and eventually into the latest tall cylinder forms of black glass through the first three quarters of the 19th century (1800s), black glass disappeared from use in production of glass bottles for the most part in preference to "cleaner" and more translucent and colorful glasses deemed more desirable and better suited to the sale of bottled merchandise, liquid drinks, and foods. Below is an extremely rare example of one of the earliest "proto" Shaft and Globe bottles in a small approximately one-third (1/3) size, made of a slightly green tinted strong amber colored glass that, as most true "black glass", tends to appear much darker under reflected light while showing better indications of its true color by way of transmitted light through the glass. This piece likely dates to the period when black glass was just being introduced to the world for use in utilitarian bottleware, circa approximately 1625. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/OykAAOxyUrZSsEnf/$_57.JPG Below are photographic examples of the primary pontil mark styles to be found on the different time periods of Black Glass production, including 1) Rough Disc Pontil Mark 2) Sand Disc Pontil Mark 3) Glass Rod or Open Glass Blowpipe 4) Iron Pontil Mark. Note that the Rough Disc Pontil Mark somewhat resembles the Sand Disc Pontil Mark, with the exception of there being little or no indications of sand being used between the pontil face and the bottle. Some areas may appear very smooth as the pontil face has simply melted some areas within the pontil mark and caused the glass to flow smoothly. On the Sand Pontil Mark there are obvious indications of where tiny particles of sand had been between the pontil face and the bottle, with much graininess still present and more noticeable. Glass Rod or Open Blowpipe pontil marks are obvious because of the tell-tale broken glass scar where the glass rod or pipe was broken off of the bottle at the final stage of production. Iron pontil marks are distinctively round and larger than glass rod or blowpipe marks and somewhat smooth to slightly rough while the Iron Pontil left a slight residue of the metal behind on the base of the bottle, often causing a blueish tint around the pontil mark area.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/cyUAAOxyVLNSsEnv/$_57.JPG Rough disc pontil scar on the very shallow "kick up" base of the Proto Shaft and Globe bottle pictured above. Notice the very smooth areas within the pontil scar, which still shows the "roughened" characteristics of the face of the actual pontil used, and the apparent lack of any remaining indications of sand being used between the bottle and pontil. https://www.antique-bottles.net/forum/download.axd?file=0;312353 Above shows the difference in a sand pontil mark on the left and an open glass blowpipe pontil on the right. Note the obvious graininess around the outer edge of the sand pontil left by the sand that would have been present between the pontil and bottle. The outer edges of the open glass pontil shows where the open glass tube was broken off as the final step in finishing such open pontil bottles. http://historicalglass.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/16a_0.jpg Notice the residue left by the pontil on this bottle. This is characterized by the use of later iron pontils. The above examples are generally in chronological order by period or "age", and can assist greatly in helping to date early through late types of black glass bottles.

fer_de_lance
12-22-2013, 10:34 AM
thanks for the reference

cacarpetbagger
12-22-2013, 03:00 PM
Interesting read thanks.

RED Matthews
01-04-2014, 04:14 PM
I have just finished re=reading "Understanding ANTIQUE WINE BOTTLES" by Roger Dumbrell; and I found it very informative with early pontil and push-up information on these early bottles.RED Matthews

sandchip
01-05-2014, 09:00 AM
Below is an extremely rare example of one of the earliest "proto" Shaft and Globe bottles in a small approximately one-third (1/3) size, made of a slightly green tinted strong amber colored glass that, as most true "black glass", tends to appear much darker under reflected light while showing better indications of its true color by way of transmitted light through the glass. This piece likely dates to the period when black glass was just being introduced to the world for use in utilitarian bottleware, circa approximately 1625. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/OykAAOxyUrZSsEnf/$_57.JPG

Interesting piece. What's the story behind this bottle? Provenance, how and where it was found, etc... Thanks for sharing it with us,

RED Matthews
03-04-2014, 07:01 PM
I just went through six black glass squat quart bottles and 3 had deep cone punty rod push ups. Two had deep cones with hot glass for the holding. One has a deep cone with a bit vent dot in the center. Doesn’t help much though. RED Matthews