EMBOSSED BOTTLE MOLDS (Coca Cola, etc.)

Howdy again ~

Just for the record, and for those who haven't already surmised it yet, I consider myself a pretty intense guy when it comes to research. As some of you have noticed from my previous postings, I sometimes dig so deep into my research that I bury muself. I guess that's just my nature, and hope to heck it doesn't offend anyone. And if it does, let me apologize now, and state that my only intent is to broaden our knowledge and enjoyment of collecting something that was tossed away as completely worthless back in the day.

With that said, I would like to draw attention to the "thousands" of soda bottle molds that were used prior to about 1930. I'm currently doing some research in this area, and would like to invite anyone interested in this topic to join me. The photo below is an example of what I am referring to. In this case it is an older Coca Cola "hobbleskirt" mold, but I am also interested in most any of the early molds in general. There aren't too many collectors in this area that I know of, as the molds are extremely difficult to come by, and often command high prices when they do become available.

From time to time I will add additional information to this thread, and hopefully come up with some interesting information to make it a worthwhile read. In the meantime, if there is anyone among us who already has a collection of these molds, or would just like to add their 2-cents worth, please feel free to do so. My primary focus will not pertain to value so much as it will to rarity and variety. Notice in the photo below how the wording is reversed. The first time I saw one of these the wording struck me as odd because I never really thought about before. But how cool would it be to have a collection of these gizmoz?

(Photos welcomed ... and encouraged).

Thanks a million for allowing me to indulge myself without getting yelled at.

Sincerely,

SODAPOPBOB < I really am a "POP" too! I have three daughters and two grandchildren that call me that.

Hello SODAPOPBOB; This is a follow-up to help you know more about the molds your are interested in. I have spent over forty years in the glass industry dealing with every factor of mold manufacturing, mold repair, mold materials etc. etc..

A good place to start would be to visit my homepage. http://www.bottlemysteries.com/ After you get there check out each of the top worded subjects in the Header to the page. Also check out the blog section on the left side of the page.

After you have done that, then feel free to contact me at: bottlemysteries@yahoo.com
I would need a top and back view of your Coca Cola mold to tell for sure, but from what I see: It is a single mold and bottom plate for the bottle. From the picture I am inclined to say that it is a mold for the I-S Machine and it may have been run in Double Gob, or Tripple Gob, or Quad Gob operation on the glass machine. I can’t tell which metal the mold is made of. It looks like a bronze like (Binney DV metal) or on the Forum the picture looks like it is made of iron. Check it with a magnet! A picture of the back will tell me about the cooling fins, the lower hanger lug that is on it. I am confident I can help you a lot with your quest for information on molds. Your comment about the reverse lettering also applies to the illustrations and trade marks that appear on bottles. In order to read the male letters on a bottle the letters have to be put in the mold with reverse letters and details. I am preparing a blog on the embossing methods. One of the things I look for are bottles that show reverse lettering and mold repair flukes that show up on the glass product. The letters N and S, are the most common letters reversed because the letter cutter was not paying attention to his job.

I am also working on a blog regarding mold venting. I am sure your mold has vent holes. I couldn’t tell from the picture what type of polish was used in the cavity. It looks like a good job and I am sure that there are some new methods used today, because I have been in retirement for nearly 16 years.

Now then for your statement regarding the thousands of molds that have been made and scrapped. The metals are carefully recycled into the future foundry melts. They are not readily available but they can sometimes be obtained if you visit a junk yard near a glass house.

This is long enough for now. Come back to me. RED Matthews

Red ~

Fantastic website! Thank you for sharing. I read through most of it, (which explains why it took me so long to post this reply), and will be going back for more soon. I feel a bit like the mouse who asked for a cookie but wasn't satisfied until he had a glass of milk to go with it. Your website was that glass of milk for me. Or should I say "bottle" of milk?" I never realized until now there were individuals out there like yourself who were so knowledgeable and passionate about bottle making history. It's obvious you have spent a great deal of time on this subject, and are to be commended for your accomplishments. The part where you spoke of walking along the railroad tracks as a boy reminded me of my own childhood and how I developed an interest in soda bottles at an early age. My friends and I used to walk along the old county roads and gather soda bottles for the deposits. But ocassionally we would find one that was no longer in circulation, which the local grocery store owner would promptly point out to us. Thus started my collection of old soda bottles at about the age of ten back in 1962.

But before getting too far afield, I need to point out that the Coke bottle mold I posted a photo of is not owned by me, but was "borrowed" from another website strictly to illustrate the type of mold(s) I was interested in. Now I feel like that little mouse again who got away with the cheese without getting caught, (until now).

In any event, I have several specific questions for you, but will study your site again to see if they are answered there before posting them here. In the meantime, there are a couple of things you may be able to tell us about now that will hopefully be of interest to all. Which are ...

1. Regarding soda bottles like the green 6 OZ. Coke bottle shown in my borrowed photo above, but that have different cities embossed on the bottoms; Did the bottle makers, like Illinois Glass, etc., keep an assortment of different mold bases on hand with different cities on them, or was there some method of easily changing an existing mold base to match the desired city? This same question also applies to the date changes located on the sides of these Coke bottle. New mold or changed mold?

2. Please tell us briefly about the mold "numbers" that appear on these and so many other soda bottles. What is that all about?

Thanks again for your contribution. If you haven't already written a book, you should!

SODAPOPBOB ... "The mouse that roared"

Now here is a reply to your mailing to me.

SODAPOPBOB, Bob, I assume. Thanks for the comeback and don’t worry about the pictured mold. What I was interested in was the quality of the polished mold cavity. It looks like they might have used some new method of polishing in the cavity. I have worked with the glass bottle surface strength and in the process, testing different types of mold metals and surface treatments to the mold cavity metal. I have, in my homepage covered the effects of the chilled mold cavity iron. I have also tested aluminum impregnation in the mold cavity metal; Malcomizing the mold cavity metal; testing the glass surface out of the iron mold vs the glass surface from bronze molds and other metal castings.

Now for question 1. The manufacture of molds is a blog that I have some starts on, but it will take a lot of time to cover the processes from the Product Samples to the Pattern Shops wooden patterns for the casting at a Foundry, the heat treating or processing of the metals used; and then to the Machining and Processing to put the mold components through to the Mold Shop; ready to make glass.

You asked if they used different mold bases to fit in the molds for a certain Cities Bottles. To my knowledge the answer is NO! A mold is supplied with it’s own bottom. You also asked later about the mold number. Mold # 7 will have the same # on both halves and the bottom plate will also have the same number. When the molds are made for a set of molds the Mold Shop or Supplier will end up making the number of molds for a specific machine assigned to the job.

The number of molds for an important job will have sets of maybe 24 for a six section single gob machine; and up to maybe 500 mold sets for a double 8section back to back triple gob machine. Today there are some double 10 section quad gob machines that would probably have to have more than that for job coverage. I haven’t even tried to keep up with today’s production requirements. Now this section of description is involving the Blow and Blow Process of the IS Hartford Machine mold part requirements.

These quantities will also apply to the other parts to keep a machine in operation. We are talking about a lot of equipment pieces – that many people can not comprehend. Bear in mind that each mold has to have a bottom plate, hanger lugs, a blowhead with a blow pipe tube, a pair of take out tongs on the final blow side of the machine.

On the blank side there are the orifice ring inserts, shear blades, the delivery scoop and delivery troughs and a funnel, to deliver the gob of glass to the blank (parison) mold on the ABM. The parison mold on a blow and blow machine is what shapes the parison of the bottle. The shape of the parison is what controls the glass distribution in the final bottle blown. The blank mold has two parts and requires a baffle for the top end coverage of the sealing of the delivery opening in the blank mold. It also has to have holes or a baffle valve to deliver the settle air pressure that pushes the gob of glass down into the cavity and into the parts that create the finish of what will end up as the top finish of the bottle.

The finish generating pieces include the neck ring which has a guide ring and is licked into the neckring cut-out of the blank mold closure. This mechanism also has a plunger in it, which comes up and shapes the inside of the bottle finish at this time. I hope this helps you realize the magnitude of the mold requirements.

Back to your concerns about the date lettering on the sides of the molds – they can not be changed for the job. That lettering was completed when the set was built. Now that is something to digest. So I will try to help with your questions. RED Matthews.

Red ~

Thanks again for the detailed information regarding bottle molds and the process involved in actually making the bottles. I think we sometimes forget that bottle making has developed into a major industry and is no longer the twenty-bottles-per-day process it used to be when they were hand blown. While reading your last post I could just feel the 2000+ degree heat required to melt and form the necessary ingredients into glass. At one point I thought I was going to have to put my sun glasses on. But all kidding aside, its great stuff!

Even back in the 1950s, which accounts for the dates of the majority of my collection, soda bottles were being produced by the thousands/millions? It may be interesting to note that the population of Los Angeles in 1952, (which was the year I was born), was appx. 2,000,000 people. The current population of L.A. is about 4,000,000. By contrast, the 1852 population was appx. 1600. So, any way you want to slice it, that's a "lot" of bottles being produced over the years. And I'm just talking about L.A. alone, not to mention the rest of the country.

Anyway, back to the molds. The link below will open to a film clip of an early Owens Automatic Bottle Machine (ABM) in operation. I'm not sure how "early" the clip is, but my guess would be in the 1920s/30s, or thereabouts. It may take a minute for it to open, but I tested it three times and found it to be a safe connection, and one worth waiting for.

By the way ... Is that you Red in the mid-portion of the video, (The guy wearing the cap) ??? Just kidding again, of course, and I hope you enjoy the show. Note: Watch closely and you will see the finished bottles sliding down a ramp at the rate of about one every five seconds or so.

Thanks again,

SPB

P.S. If anyone can tell me what is embossed on the bottom of the bottles in the closeup at the end of the video, I will give you three-cents ... which was the deposit amount on soda bottles back in 1962.

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/michaelowens.mpg

OK, SODAPOPBOB, That is a good illustration of the Owens Machine. I had watched it before. There is another one on the sha.org listings that shows the men making bottles with a burst-off finish, that is quite neat to watch.

The Owens Machine sucks the parison glass up into the blank mold all the way to the finish. This movie also shows the parison mold coming down on to the molten glass forehearth and sucking the glass up into the blank cavity, It also shows the shear cutting the glass off from the lift. That shearing action on an early Owens Machine leaves a round circular mark on the bottom of the bottle and the swinging motion of the shear usually leaves the sweeping lines going across that circular cut mark on the bottles. This is how you can tell it is and Owens Machine made bottle you are looking at.

Have you ever visited a modern glass factory? I asked this because I wondered if you have seen the furnace construction for today's glass making? Well I better cut this before they time me out RED Matthews

Here's a couple of my Coke bottle molds...





And just for grins, I have a lot of printing plates for the cans.. I think these are pretty cool.

Well wonkapete; Thanks for the pictures. Obviously you are also into Coca-Cola bottles and cans.

First of all I am a little at a loss on the first mold you pictured. I don't recognize the mold design. It must be for a machine that is different than what I have experienced working on. I would appreciate some more information if you have any. The milled face vents are unique. The metal almost looks like a steel alloy. I hope you can fill me in some more.

The second mold looks like one for an IS-Machine.

The can plates I have seen before - but for Budweiser beer cans. Have you ever seen the aluminum cans being made - coated - printed - cured and loaded into special semi-trailers. The whole sequence study blew my mind when I was working on a project of handling for the Alcoa plant in Tampa FL.

There are sure a lot of roads one can take if they are interested in how things are made. I once worked on a project for handling - Prell Shampoo plastic tubes. One can not conceive the effects of static electricity on items like these empty tubes. They would simply fly and climb over each other way up into the ceiling gurders in the plane where they were being made. A fantastic sight - and we solved their problem. The projects that "Application Engineers" get assigned to are really fascinating, and full of memories. RED Matthews

Hi Red, glad you like.

I really don't know what type of machine that particular mold was for. I can take more pictures of it if you wish. Maybe there's some identifying marks on it. I'll have to check. All I know is, it's extremely heavy.

Howdy again ~

I'm no expert on bottle molds, but I do recognize the bottle design ... It's a (NDNR) "No Deposit No Return" (Not to Be Refilled) from the 1960s - 70s. (See the word "COKE" in block letters). A closer inspection of the mold "lettering" would narrow this date down. Especially if there was lettering/numbers on the mold "base."

Just my 2 cent$ worth ...

Thanks to all for the additional information.

SPB