Value of cobalt pontil umbrella

Welcome to our Antique Bottle community

Be a part of something great, join today!

saratogadriver

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Messages
1,406
Reaction score
250
Points
83
Location
Vermont
Thanks. I can see the circle you are speaking of now. It's difficult to see, probably easier in person...

Jim G
 

tigue710

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
4,762
Reaction score
5
Points
0
Location
connecticut - nor cal
its a tough one for sure, but absolutely pontiled... There is the issue of the impression being a little larger then an open pontil mark as you would typically see on a bottle this size, so I wouldn't rule out a sand chip, disc or even clean iron pontil, but I have seen marks where the blow pipe broke away so clean there was no ring left... It is pontiled for sure! What type exactly I dont know...
 

Wheelah23

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
4,511
Reaction score
5
Points
38
Location
Glen Ridge, New Jersey
Well, I read the whole section on the Historic Bottle Website about pontils. I've come to the conclusion that I haven't come to a conclusion yet on what type of pontil these have. [:D]

I can eliminate iron and blowpipe pontils, those are very distinct. It's also not a ground pontil or refired, I have examples of those and they are not the same. So it is more than likely a "glass tipped" pontil, or a "disk pontil". Below is a picture of each, and below that is a base of a "combination pontil" on a similar umbrella ink. That one may show that umbrella inks do not conform strictly to the regular rules of pontilling...

"Glass tipped"
saucepontil.jpg


"disk"
pineapplebasetext.jpg


"combination" (I'm just showing this to prove that umbrella inks were sometimes weirdos.)
doublepontilbase.jpg


And one more pic. THIS IS AN INK WE DUG WITH THE OTHER TWO WHOSE PONTILS WE ARE DISCUSSING, NOT the one I am trying to value, and also a different mold and generally a different lip treatment. I am going out on a limb here to say this pontil is certainly a "glass tipped" (or glass chip, the names are apparently interchangeable) pontil scar.
55919A8D6F62401D9A706E69939D598D.jpg
 

Wheelah23

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
4,511
Reaction score
5
Points
38
Location
Glen Ridge, New Jersey
A potentially relevant quote I found in that section:

"Occasionally, it appears that when the pontil rod was removed from the base of a bottle little or no glass and/or iron residue was left behind to indicate that a pontil rod was used. The reasons this occurs are unknown but may just be chance or certain glass making related conditions. These bottles would then appear to have been produced with a snap case tool when in fact they were made with a pontil rod. This likely happened with any of the empontilling methods discussed below but in particular is thought most likely with the sand pontil, glass tipped pontil, and bare iron pontil since examples of all have been noted that were very obscure and difficult to see (empirical observations)."
 

kungfufighter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
1,276
Reaction score
6
Points
38
No need to overthink it - each of the inks you have posted is in fact pontiled and likely in the "sand chip" (or whatever verbiage is popularized at the moment) manner. The entire "is it pontiled or isn't it" as regards VALUE has always confounded me - yes, it is a wonderful topic for intellectualizing but in the end, some non-pontiled bottles are earlier than pontiled bottles and as a result, any discussion of "worth" should be about the quality of the object itself, should it not?

Great bottle and something to be proud of digging/selling.

Again, simply my .02.
 

kungfufighter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Messages
1,276
Reaction score
6
Points
38
Oh, and great detective work Connor. You have spent a lot of time researching this and that's admirable. Keep up the hard work! My comments as regards pontil type are solely related to "value" - I think it's important to realize early on that knowledge and value are not always simpatico:)
 

Wheelah23

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
4,511
Reaction score
5
Points
38
Location
Glen Ridge, New Jersey
ORIGINAL: kungfufighter

Oh, and great detective work Connor.  You have spent a lot of time researching this and that's admirable.  Keep up the hard work!  My comments as regards pontil type are solely related to "value" - I think it's important to realize early on that knowledge and value are not always simpatico:)

Thanks Jeff. That's my philosphy exactly. Bottles like these will come and go in my collection, but the knowledge I gain from them will stay at least until I'm 80! [:D] That's why I'm trying so doggedly to find the type of pontil. I sent a long email to Bill Lindsey himself, he'll settle it for sure. Plus I just wanted to email him, he seems like an awesome dude.
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest threads

Forum statistics

Threads
83,220
Messages
742,916
Members
24,237
Latest member
Fancy2cu
Top