Help dating this Gulden's Mustard Jar with Label?

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jdhiller

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New Member, first post... Thanks in advance for any dating information I can get on this old jar. Reads "CHA'S. GULDEN Dépôt, New York. MOUTARDE IMPERIALE AUX FINES HERBES. Seul Fabricant autorisé." Interestingly, the label has been applied over the letters "C & L" outline embossed about 5/8 inch high letters. I do not believe the label to be a later addition. Bottom of jar is blank.

Gulden started his mustard business in New York in 1867. At first I thought this was a label for export to France, but I now believe all the French was intended to make the mustard look imported. In 1869 the American Institute of the City of New York for the Encouragement of Science and Invention had a Fair into which Gulden entered his mustard. The handwritten judge's report said of Gulden's Mustard, "Although conveying the idea of foreign manufacture are really made in this city from American seeds etc., and represent the French and German flavors." So, my question: does this jar date to around the beginnings of Gulden's mustard business, and represent perhaps one of the earliest bottles with label from the company? The label certainly appears to be of that era, but I just don't know enough about the history of this jar shape to date the bottle. I think it is quite believable that a young (24 y.o.) businessman starting out in the mustard business would buy excess bottles of another manufacturer and apply his labels over their embossing. What do you folks think?

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Dansalata

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dont know the dates but just wanted to compliment on your nice photography..wahata sweet label too..im sure one of the experts will chime in soon..welcome to the blue pages!!!
 

cyberdigger

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Indeed, nice debut post! Your info presented to us so far sounds pretty tight, it could be quite an early example..
 

GuntherHess

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According to Zumwalts book it appears the early bottles were in the traditional barrel mustard form.
It seems around 1875 they started making bottles in that shorter jar form. Its odd that yours isn't embossed on the bottom.
From you photo it seems to have a tooled lip rather than an earlier applied lip. Probably indicating 1880s or later.
 

RED Matthews

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Well Jim, the glass looks old enough. The big question is how far up the neck do the seams go? The neat thing is the label being placed over some one Else's embossed container.

Welcome to this Forum. We need new interested people that like the idea of learning about one of America's early industrial developed industries.
To most of us; the concepts and marvels of the hand blown early glass makers, is what drew us into the study of the marks their processing made on the glass. These marks have intrigued me, because of the mystery of how or why they became evidence of what they had to do to make the container with the tools and methods that developed along with the industrial application to our way of life.

Check my homepage and you will learn about my 76 years of learning about glass making.
RED Matthews
 

GuntherHess

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woops , totally missed the part about the C & L embossed under the label.
That would explain the lack of the Gulden info on the bottom I guess.
 

epackage

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The label over the C & L troubles me...
 

GuntherHess

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its possible Gulden bought out bottle stock of another failed company.
That shape is very close to their later bottles.
Seems a bit odd though since companies like Gulden and Heinz were very tuned into product branding and design patents were a big part of that branding.
Its an odd item. The label looks original to bottle from what I can see.
 

jdhiller

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@GuntherHess: Wondering, would it be surprising for a shoestring budget startup to be using excess bottle stock for his new venture? I think it's possible. I can understand your statement about branding for a more established Gulden's years later.
 

cyberdigger

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I have been staring and contemplating a bit.. perhaps a young Chas G did indeed use other peoples' jar stock at first, and he happened to like this style of jar, so he had his own designed after it more or less, once he could afford to... ?
 

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