Cross & Co. Vancouver B.C. 1894-1963

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SODABOB

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If Schweppes was concerned with protecting their name, trademark, and labels as early as 1857, then I gotta believe they would be all over a company like Cross's if they tried it -- especially if both companies were located in the same place at the same time such as Vancouver, B.C., Canada. I realize this is speculative and that we may never find confirmation of it, but it wouldn't surprised me in the least to discover that Schweppes was well aware of what Cross & Co. was up to, and possibly confronted them about it out of court, causing Cross & Co. to discontinue using ANYTHING that was even remotely similar to what Schweppes was using. such as an almost identical bottle label (Maybe?)


Preston, England ~ 1857



Schweppes Warning_The_Preston_Chronicle_and_Lancashire_Advertiser_Preston_England_Sat__May_23__1.jpg
 

CanadianBottles

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The little bottles are definitely British based off of the coin, the miniature I have no idea about. I've still never seen a Canadian-made Schweppes bottle predating the ACL era, so I'm curious about just how much presence Schweppes Ltd actually had in Canada. All the ads we've seen from before 1955 were placed by Canadian agents for the company - in other words not directly by Schweppes Ltd. It's also worth noting that Cross was using that label from 1929 until some point in the ACL era, likely at least the 1940s. So that's 15 or so years that Schweppes didn't do anything about them copying their label design. My current theory is that, despite Schweppes products being widely available in Canada at the time through local agents, Schweppes Ltd themselves weren't active enough in the country to bother with or possibly even know about imitators.
 

Canadacan

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Just to elaborate on the time line for Cross's using that label. The eairliest we know is 1929 as previously mentioned,...it's possible it was even earlier right? I can establish that Cross used that label (although slightly modified sometime between 1947-56) from 1929-1956. It was changed to just the Cross logo on the bottle for sure by 1958. Interesting to note that Schweppes was still using that same label in question as late as 1958 in the UK.
So we have at a minimum 18 years and if we include the updated label that brings it to 27 years of use.

Something I thought about... The word 'Coca-Cola' is copyrighted when combined right?, but just cola is allowed to be used by others. My thought is that 'Ginger Ale' is not copyrighted and is used by all manufactures, so it's generic.
The name of the product 'Cross's' is not even remotely close to the name 'Schweppes'
Next is the fact Schweppes copyrighted the water fountain symbol as their trademark along with obviously the name. I would imagine it's possible that Cross's copyrighted the 'Cross' symbol.

Maybe that was just not enough to pursue litigation for copyright infringement, and all the while Schweppes was well aware of it.


UK ad dated 1958
Schweppes UK-1958.jpg


My three examples dated 1947, 1956, 1958
20191101_232459.jpg
 

shotdwn

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Could it be that it would not have been cost effective for Schweppes to pursue a trademark infringement case in Canada. They may have known about the similarities of the label but didn't have a big enough presents in Canada for the gain to out weigh the cost. Also with Cross being a Canadian company and Schweppes being a British one that the difference may have been enough that Schweppes knew they stood a good chance of losing the case in Canada trying to enforce their trademark.
 

CanadianBottles

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Either scenario is definitely possible. I'm pretty certain that copying the entire label design but changing the words and pictures wouldn't be allowed under copyright law today, but I have no idea how stringent it was in the 1920s-1950s. I wonder if there are any other examples out there of a local bottler copying the complete label design of a major brand and changing the logo and words.
 

SODABOB

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Reminder ...

This Schweppes ad was published in a Vancouver, Canada newspaper in ...

1914

Schweppes_The_Province_Vancouver_B.C._Canada Wed__Dec_23__1914 (2).jpg

Schweppes_The_Province_Vancouver_B.C._Canada Wed__Dec_23__1914 (3).jpg


I acknowledge what it says about a British connection and that it was imported -- but even with that said, based on the current timeline it precedes the 1929 Cross's date by fifteen years. If Schweppes was the first to use that particular label, that carries a lot of weight when it comes to trademarks. copyrights, etc.

However, I also acknowledge ...

1. British trademarks and U.S. trademarks might fall into different categories when it comes to rights and protections.

2. It appears the only thing Schweppes was ever granted a trademark for was their name and the fountain logo.

3. Maybe its like what Shotdwn said earlier, in that the different red seals; Schweppes with a fountain and Cross's with a cross, was enough of a difference that no infringement by either company had occurred.

Or ...

4. Neither company cared what the other company did and there was never an issue to begin with.

If y'all want to pursue this further, I think it would help to keep digging and see if we can find two key components, namely ...

1. If Cross & Company ever applied for and was granted a trademark of any type. No trademark no protection?

2. If there are records of either company suing the other one. For all we know at the present, Cross might have sued Schweppes.

 

SODABOB

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These are the earliest references I can find for both companies in any of the VANCOUVER newspapers. I realize they don't address the label in question, and are merely intended to establish who was the first to advertise their ginger ale in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I acknowledge that both companies might have been operating earlier in Vancouver, but if they did I can't find confirmation of it. Please note I am focusing on Vancouver only and not other locations in Canada. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the label in question was only distributed in Vancouver.

Schweppes ~ November 5, 1900

Schweppes_Vancouver_Daily_World_Mon__Nov_5__1900.jpg


Cross & Co. ~ December 14, 1901

Cross & Co._Vancouver_Daily_World_Sat__Dec_14__1901.jpg




 

Canadacan

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Either scenario is definitely possible. I'm pretty certain that copying the entire label design but changing the words and pictures wouldn't be allowed under copyright law today, but I have no idea how stringent it was in the 1920s-1950s. I wonder if there are any other examples out there of a local bottler copying the complete label design of a major brand and changing the logo and words.

Well in Ontario Maedel's Beverages from Essex - Chatham basically used the Kist bottle with their name on it! I was told Kist went after them for it.
 

Canadacan

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These are the earliest references I can find for both companies in any of the VANCOUVER newspapers. I realize they don't address the label in question, and are merely intended to establish who was the first to advertise their ginger ale in Vancouver, BC, Canada. I acknowledge that both companies might have been operating earlier in Vancouver, but if they did I can't find confirmation of it. Please note I am focusing on Vancouver only and not other locations in Canada. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the label in question was only distributed in Vancouver.

Yes correct, I don't believe Cross's was distributed outside of British Columbia, just the general Vancouver area.
 

SODABOB

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I don't know the dates for either of these Cross & Co. seltzer bottles, and will try and determine that later, but they should confirm that Cross did Trademark their cross logo at some point. There are lots of these Vancouver Cross seltzer bottles to be found, but I don't know the exact dates for any of them -- but would GUESS they are from the 1920s and/or 1930s. Notice they both have REGISTERED on them and not applied for.

Cross & Co Seltzer Bottle Trademark Date Unknown.jpg

Cross & Co Seltzer Bottle with Trademark Date Unknown.jpg
 

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