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  1. #1
    Senior Member Bottle Master Spirit Bear's Avatar
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    Age of Bottle With Disk Pontil?

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    Due to extreme mineralisation upon and leaching from the glass, I wasn't sure that the ring was from a punty rod. I scraped a spot with a thick,sharp needle and it didn't fall away but merely made it more brown, so I assume it is iron residue forming a 'disk pontil'?
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    Laid on ring ('Champagne' finish) lip, uneven mouth.
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    What drew me to this plain (but well-constructed in thickness and solidity) bottle was the extreme decomposition of the glass. While I usually hate that on bottles, I wished it were more on this example-- especially the 'Benicia' aspect. The bottle features also many gouges and scratches, almost as if it had been scraped. I wish it were not so, but I suppose it gives it more character.
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    For what it's worth, the bottle was found in Texas. Original context unknown.
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    I was hoping that an expert in earlier American and English glass may know more on this piece? I was hoping to know its approximate age, as I assume it is older than most of the wines I've come across.
    Have I not commanded thee? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

    Joshua chapter 1, verse 9.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Bottle Master sandchip's Avatar
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    I don't believe it's a disk pontil, but aside from that I'm not gonna be much help. I never thought that type bottom was the result of the use of a pontil at all, until I found a large (4" d x 12" h) champagne blown in a dip mold, sheared top with an applied ring just below the lip just like yours. Other smaller ones that I've found were blown in much later turn molds. So now, I'm wondering, trying to figure out 1. whether a pontil was used at all, and 2. how that large nipple was formed at the top of the kick-up, because the nipple couldn't have been part of the mold, at least on my example because it is solid. Maybe Harry can help us out here. Here's a few pics of mine.

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    The last picture shows where the surface of the glass changes somewhat (orange) which would normally make me certain that it's ball pontiled, but the solid nipple makes me question that, because it is smooth as the area of the kickup between the base and the orange line. The red arrows show fissures that I assume were a result of differing rates of cooling between two thicknesses of glass around the nipple. Another argument for pontil is that the bottle leans a bit, which would've been a result of pushing in the base unevenly.



    In short, I just don't know.
    Last edited by sandchip; 12-03-2017 at 04:17 PM.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Bottle Master
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    Those wine bottles are generally believed to have a huge age range, much of the 1800s, maybe even a bit wider. They seem to have been in extensive usage...

    Jim G

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bottle Finder RelicRaker's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I recently dug a very similar champagne in an excavation where the finds dated back to the 1880s.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Bottle Master
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    I have found this kind of win in 1850s privy's . I say it go s at least that far.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Bottle Master Spirit Bear's Avatar
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    A well-set argument, sandchip.

    saratogadriver, I see many similar kinds, but never one like this with the type of pontil(?) on it.

    I would have thought it was mine, Relic Raker, if it weren't that your bottle's mouth inverts.

    sunrunner, thank you. I was thinking maybe 1850s, but this type of bottle is out of my normal study so I wasn't confident.
    Have I not commanded thee? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

    Joshua chapter 1, verse 9.

  7. #7
    Junior Member New Bottler
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    We usually call those "hock wines"
    jay

  8. #8
    Senior Member Bottle Master
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    Jay,

    What I call a hock wine is usually taller, narrower, and lacking the deep kickup.

    Spirit Bear,

    Once in a while I have seen these with what does appear to be some sort of pontil...and those usually come from 1840's-1860's pits. It does look like yours is very early and likely is "pontiled".

  9. #9
    Senior Member Bottle Master Spirit Bear's Avatar
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    NC btl-dvr, the Hoc style is very slender and very tall. This is a Hoc:
    https://sha.org/bottle/Typing/wine/bayrum.jpg

    nhpharm, thank you. It amazes me how many kinds of pontils abound.
    Have I not commanded thee? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.

    Joshua chapter 1, verse 9.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Bottle Master
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    Interesting... My general belief was that these were made over a broad range of time with various base/manufacturing treatments and that you couldn't really date them based on whether they had a pontil mark (I think generally the European manufacturers kept using the blowpipe and pontil rod longer than we did in the US). Your evidence would seem to suggest that my assumption may be wrong.

    Jim G


    Quote Originally Posted by nhpharm View Post
    Jay,

    What I call a hock wine is usually taller, narrower, and lacking the deep kickup.

    Spirit Bear,

    Once in a while I have seen these with what does appear to be some sort of pontil...and those usually come from 1840's-1860's pits. It does look like yours is very early and likely is "pontiled".



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