Earliest ACL Royal Crown Cola redux

[morbious_fod]

For reference sake here is the lip of my suspected 1935 Royal Crown Cola bottle. It doesn't appear to be a clearly embossed as the G1/I from the Upper 10 bottle, and I dare say the 1/I is shifted a bit higher than the G. Could be a trick of the eye.

 

[squirtbob]

Morb, Thanks for posting all the pictures. You have some very very nice RC Bottles. All three bottles that I have with the lip characters we are discussing look exactly like your previous lip post. It is certainly open to interpretation as to whether it is a 1 or an I ...as you can tell there are no horizontal markings on the character to help us. While I can see why Glenshaw might use G1 to mark its first year date marking acl's, I don't currently see how that works on the 7UP bottles I mentioned when you consider the advertising. I'm not expert on the Upper 10 bottles, I just know that some features of an OI Upper 10 bottle from 1937 match my glenshaw Upper 10...but that is not conclusive because I don't know much about Upper 10 ad historyI guess I should also note here concerning the Glenshaw chart that we always refer to ... I have a"Y" bottle squirt and it is certainly not double dated as the author of that article mentions. My "Y" has a 45 on the base and that would be impossible for that particular bottle. It has all caps block letters in the splash and the advertising on the back was only used from 1952 to 1957.If we keep plugging along maybe we'll find the solution. Hopefully others will post more info and pictures. I certainly appreciate all the info you have listed.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

No time to comment at the moment, just posting the codes again to use as a reference for the recent contributions ...

 

[dbv1919]

Morbious- I started the original post with the pics on the white shelf. I think the 1937 year was a transition year for the neck debossing as I have one 37 with the pointed star and one with the flattened star over it. 1939 was the year they started the neck acl's. The neck acls are different from all the latter acls in that they have royal RC crown on the neck as opposed to just royal crown. I posted a pic of one on the original post on page 7 if that helps.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

I am sincere when I say there is a part of me that wants to believe the code chart is spot on, and yet there is another part of me that calls it into question. My uncertainty primarily stems from the fact that of the numerous accounts I have seen regarding the code charts that not in a single one of them do they mention anything whatsoever about the double-letter codes. And some of the accounts I'm referring to were compiled by what I would call advanced researchers. Surely those advanced researchers examined numerous Glenshaw bottles and surely they came across at least a few of the double-letter examples. And yet, even with this said, there is no mention of the double-letters. Its as if they just ignored the G's and continued as if the second letters were the only ones that counted. If you go back and read the entire page where the code chart is shown, you will see in the second paragraph where it says ...

"PSBCA [Painted Soda Bottle Collectors Association] member David Meinz cracked the odd code after visiting the Glenshaw Glass Co. in 1989."

And just so you'll know, the Glenshaw factory was still in operation in 1989 and still is under it's new name, Kelman Bottles, LLC, so its not as if David Meinz was just stumbling around an old deserted plant digging through debris, the assumption is that he actually met with someone at the facility where he obtained the code information. And yet, I say again, why no mention of the double-letters? Thus, is it even remotely possible there are some unanswered questions that need to be addressed and some missing links that require mending? I for one say yes! The craziest thing of all is, here we are trying to make sense of things and all we comprise of is a handful of soda bottle collectors who are simply trying to accurately date a couple of old Royal Crown Cola bottles. But if true-blue soda bottle collectors can't do it, then I don't know who can!

So are you ready for some more confusion? I hope so because I have a bucket-load of it!

Confusion # 1 ...

I'm not certain this is all that relevant, but because we're trying to set the record straight I figured it was worthy of at least a cursory examination. Notice in the first paragraph of the attached article where it says ...

"Sources disagree on the date when Glenshaw began using the [G in-a-square] logo. It may have been in use as early as 1904 ..."

I looked into this and, even though I haven't found confirmation yet, there appears to be ample evidence to support the possibility that Glenshaw did in fact first use the G in-a-square logo as early as 1904. The most noteworthy indication is the possible existence of a 1904 "Trademark" application. I looked for the Trademark source but so far but haven't found anything specific yet. If it does exist, and can be confirmed, then we can at least add that to our records which may, in time, assist us in better understanding the codes themselves. You can do your own research into this subject, but in the meantime here are just a couple of the sources I have found so far ...

Bill Lockhart Article ~ Page 441 ~ Same as the image below

http://www.sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/EPChap10b.pdf


Bottle Pickers ~ Trademarks ~ Listed Alphabetically

http://www.bottlepickers.com/trademarks.htm



Confusion # 2

In the middle paragraph of the attached article, notice where it says ...

"Two digit numbers do accompany the Box-G logo on many bottles during the letter date code period, but these are not dates."


The reason I call this confusing is because in the date code page where David Meinz supposedly broke the code, it clearly says that double dating on the lip and base occurred from 1953 until 1958. And yet, if I understand Bill Lockhart correctly, the double digit numbers on the base are not dates. But most confusing of all is that Bill Lockhart just leaves the statement hanging there without expounding as to what the double-digit numbers represent if not dates. Geeze Louise, how confusing can it get? So my question is this, did someone brake the dang code or didn't they? But irregardless of that, maybe this information will at least clarify squirtbob's quandary about the Y/45. But that's just about all it clarifies!

Hey, squirtbob!

The 45 isn't a date! But please don't ask me what it represents cause I dunno! []

Image from ...

Bill Lockhart Article ~ Original 2000 / Revised 2010 ~ Page 441

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

P.S. I wonder exactly what Bill Lockhart meant when he said in his article ... "By at least 1932, Glenshaw began embossing a small "G" on the reinforcing ring of the crown finish of its soda bottles. The letters began to advance in 1936, and they became reliable date codes." It sounds to me as if the reliable date codes didn't start until 1936, suggesting that 1935 was not a part of the equation at the time. What do the rest of you think he meant?

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

P.S. ~ P.S. And if the embossing of a small "G" began in 1932, and then "advanced," then is he saying the letter(s) were used on their bottles continuously from 1932 to 1936?

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Just doing some math assuming they started with the letter G in 1932 and "advanced" to 1936 ... G = 1932H = 1933I = 1934J = 1935K = 1936 Hmm, it doesn't make much sense to me, at least not if the charts are accurate. But then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding what Bill Lockhart is saying.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Okay, I get it now! I think. The letters didn't "start" to advance until 1936. But it still sounds to me there's a possibility that bottles made between 1932 and 1936 had "some kind" of mark or letter, which was possibly the G we've seen, such as the one's in Morb's 1931 Ad.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Inconclusive Conclusion / Long Story Short ... If Bill Lockhart is correct, then the Glenshaw reinforcing ring letter codes began in 1935 and the letter used was probably a G. But what still needs to be explained is the G 1/I as well as the other double-letter marked bottles.