EARLIEST "CROWN TOP" SODA BOTTLES 1892 - 1900

cyberdigger

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Here's a family portrait for you, Bob.. on the right is one of the squats I showed yesterday.. the other two, believe it or not, are from the same exact mold, #376 on the base of both, and every facet of the embossing is identical.. I don't know if this demonstrates that blobs and crowns were made concurrently, or if they switched over from blob to crown during the life of the mold, but it says one or the other..

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Here's a close-up of the tall crown.. notice the bulge in the neck, about 3/8 inch from the lip portion, which creates the opinion of mine that the bottle was not designed for this lip treatment, which had to be an exact size to allow the cap to fit correctly.. conjecture, yes, but we who are interested in this TOC stuff need to work this out.. [8|]

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SODAPOPBOB

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You may have "de-cybered" something there. I'm not sure what just yet, but someth'n. I've never been a proponent of coincidence, so I'm going to "guess" again and say the W.A.F. in the center was intended for a blob-top and adapted to fit a crown. We already know the early crowns were "applied," so everything seems to fit ... or, should I say, "not fit?" In any case, it wouldn't surprise me if we were able to look into a crystal ball into the past, that we would see and hear Mr. W.A. French saying to the bottle maker , "Hey Mr. Bottle Maker, I just bought one of them'thar new-fangled crown cap machine thingy's ... any chance of you making me some of the same bottles as last time, except this time make'em with crown tops?" ... And the rest of the story is history ... Maybe ... Maybe not ... How do you "prove" such a claim?

Great observation on noticing the difference between the two bottles. Do you have any cyber-thoughts regarding those so called "air venting marks?"

Thanks,

S.P. Blob
 

cyberdigger

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Do you have any cyber-thoughts regarding those so called "air venting marks?"

I think you are talking about the dots they put on the bottle to help the worker position the label properly? Or what? [8|]
 

SODAPOPBOB

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Cy ~

Do you remember that old TV program called "You Asked For It?" Well, here's a sampling ...

~ * ~

Dating notes: All mold air venting related dating trends relative to bottle manufacturing known to the author are only relevant to mouth-blown bottles.
Mouth-blown bottles: Air venting began being used significantly by the early to mid-1880s on mouth-blown bottles and appears to have been quickly accepted, becoming an industry standard by the early 1890s. A large majority of all types of mouth-blown bottles made from or after the early 1890s exhibit mold air venting marks somewhere on the bottle shoulder, body and/or base. Conversely, very few bottles made before 1880 will have mold air venting marks with the one speculative exception noted above. Check the surface of the bottle carefully as air venting marks can be very difficult to see and are sometimes easier to feel. One clue to consider in your search for vent marks is that bottles made in molds with air venting usually have sharper, more distinct embossing and body design features (e.g., panel edges) and less distortion to the body glass than bottles without vent marks. Conversely, bottles produced in non-air vented molds tend to have more rounded and/or flattened embossing and body design features and more surface glass texture distortion than air vented bottles. These characteristics are highly variable and can be difficult to discern even to the experienced eye though should be considered in hand with other dateable, manufacturing related, diagnostic features. As a general rule, the more air venting marks present on the surface of a mouth-blown bottle the later the bottle was produced. Specifically, just one or two very small air vent bumps on the front and back shoulders (cylindrical bottles) or the body shoulder corners opposite the vertical side mold seams (square or rectangular bottles) tend to be the earliest (mid to late 1880s through the 1890s) with multiple air venting marks scattered around the bottle, including those integrated into the embossing pattern, side mold seams, and/or on the bottle base, being the latest dating, i.e., 1900 -1920 (empirical observations). This ample venting helped insure that the embossing - and bottle shape - was as crisp and sharp as possible.
Machine-made bottles: There are no reliable mold air venting related dating trends known to the author for machine-made bottles made on semi-automatic or fully automatic machines. Air venting marks may or may not be visually present on machine-made bottles from the earliest 20th century machines to those produced today (take a look at the bottles in your pantry). The number and location of air venting marks appear to have no relationship to the age or type of bottle.
~ * ~
This, and the photo to follow on the next page will better illustrate what is being said here. With the bottom line being ... if you W.A.F. (Tall Green) bottle has any of these air venting "bumps" then more than lokely it is hand blown, as opposed to machine made ... thus making it a very early crown top. (I think ??? )​
SPB​



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SODAPOPBOB

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Here's another example of a flask with "multiple" air vent bumps.

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cyberdigger

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Thanks a lot! I guess you wouldn't believe me now if I said I was only kidding, would-ja?

Anyways, there are no vent marks on these bottles.. unless they were cleverly hidden in the embossing..
 

cyberdigger

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I don't think vent marks are a great way to date beverage bottles.. the method worked without them long enough to skip that part of bottle blowing development.. vent marks are just not to be found on this bottle type.. perhaps the very thickness of the glass was enough force to fill the mold nicely... as opposed to a skinny little med or a thin-walled flask..?
 

SODAPOPBOB

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Cy ~

Wrong answer! [:D] You were supposed to reply back and say there "were" vent marks. So now I'm lost again. But we do know that your bottle wasn't made prior to 1892, and that mold venting didn't come about until the "late 1890s." We also know that these vent marks typically are not found on the later machine-made bottles beginning "around" 1906 or later.

Bottom line?

I'd say that any blown-in-a-mold crown top bottle was "most likely" made prior to 1906, but no earlier than about 1896. Thus, (in my opinion) making those same bottles some of the earliest crowns around.

Next question ... are your W.A.F. bottles "Hand Blown" or Machine Made?" You have 60 seconds to respond! Remember that old TV program called ... "Beat The Clock?" Your time starts ... NOW !!!

Tick-tick-tick ...

SPB
 

cyberdigger

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OK I found them.. three VERY faint dots in triangular formation over the slugplate.. you happy now? [:D]
 

SODAPOPBOB

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Fantastic! I knew you would find them. And to answer your question about whether I'm happy now?

The image below will have to suffice for now .... as it's dinner time!

But I'll be back ... in the meantime, what about the "Hand-blown" vs. "Machine-made" question?

Thanks a bunch,

SPB





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