Help needed on shards ID.....

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cannibalfromhannibal

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Been digging in a pontil era pit last couple days and yesterday pulled out of the bottom this Sarsaparilla I initially assumed was a Bull's from Louisville due to the "Louis" shard. They are pretty popular around here, so I was surprised when I cleaned it up and got to looking closer at it. I put on an exhaustive search and nearest I can match is the Dr. Meyers that potlidboy dug a few years ago in Eureka. Problem is, Meyers is from eastern Ny. Also, the embossing kinda adds up but the layout does not. Near as I can figure the embossing appears on the front panel, "Dan.......ion/Wil.......rry/Sar.......rilla" which translated as close as I am guessing is Dandelion/Wild Cherry/Sarsaparilla. One side panel has only ".......ERS" with no evidence of an apostrophe for the "S". I was thinking "Bitters" as I came across a "Sarsaparilla Bitters" somewhere in my searching. But Dr. Meyers fits better, especially after today I found the "Dr." shard but lost it in the muck. The other side panel has "Louis" which could be St. Louis or Louisville. Hard to tell as the shard isn't long enough in either direction but where my thumbnail is it appears a tiny edge to a letter about where a "T" might be for "St. Louis", so I am leaning more towards a St. Louis connection than Louisville. So far I can find no match. Anyone have any knowledge or ideas? My best thinking only congers up a copy cat to Meyers. Oh, it also has a gnarly pontil, but even that looks odd. It is open pontil but has also residue found on improved pontils.....go figure. Never seen that before either. Any thoughts appreciated. Still have a third of the pit to dig. Hoping against hope there is another one undamaged just waiting for me! Jack
 

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cannibalfromhannibal

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Lastly the "Louis" shard pic......
 

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truedigr

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Here is my hypothesis. I believe you have found a rare shard. I believe this might be an early piece to a Dr. Harters out of St. Louis. Harter's started in St. Louis in 1855. Moved to Dayton in the later 1800's. I could not find this bottle, but I would almost bet my bottom dollar. He did use wild cherry for his bitters. To me it looks like I see a nub of embossing that could be the end of T for ST. in front of LOUIS. St. Louis bottle babe might have an answer to this mystery. RC
 

hemihampton

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My St. Louis Harters looks like this. LEON.
 

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cowseatmaize

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cannibalfromhannibal said:
Been digging in a pontil era pit last couple days and yesterday pulled out of the bottom this Sarsaparilla I initially assumed was a Bull's from Louisville due to the "Louis" shard. They are pretty popular around here, so I was surprised when I cleaned it up and got to looking closer at it. I put on an exhaustive search and nearest I can match is the Dr. Meyers that potlidboy dug a few years ago in Eureka. Problem is, Meyers is from eastern Ny. Also, the embossing kinda adds up but the layout does not. Near as I can figure the embossing appears on the front panel, "Dan.......ion/Wil.......rry/Sar.......rilla" which translated as close as I am guessing is Dandelion/Wild Cherry/Sarsaparilla. One side panel has only ".......ERS" with no evidence of an apostrophe for the "S". I was thinking "Bitters" as I came across a "Sarsaparilla Bitters" somewhere in my searching. But Dr. Meyers fits better, especially after today I found the "Dr." shard but lost it in the muck. The other side panel has "Louis" which could be St. Louis or Louisville. Hard to tell as the shard isn't long enough in either direction but where my thumbnail is it appears a tiny edge to a letter about where a "T" might be for "St. Louis", so I am leaning more towards a St. Louis connection than Louisville. So far I can find no match. Anyone have any knowledge or ideas? My best thinking only congers up a copy cat to Meyers. Oh, it also has a gnarly pontil, but even that looks odd. It is open pontil but has also residue found on improved pontils.....go figure. Never seen that before either. Any thoughts appreciated. Still have a third of the pit to dig. Hoping against hope there is another one undamaged just waiting for me! Jack
Me too and for going west.
 

cannibalfromhannibal

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truedigr said:
Here is my hypothesis. I believe you have found a rare shard. I believe this might be an early piece to a Dr. Harters out of St. Louis. Harter's started in St. Louis in 1855. Moved to Dayton in the later 1800's. I could not find this bottle, but I would almost bet my bottom dollar. He did use wild cherry for his bitters. To me it looks like I see a nub of embossing that could be the end of T for ST. in front of LOUIS. St. Louis bottle babe might have an answer to this mystery. RC
RC, you may be on to something. I have some of the earlier Harter's meds, the Iron Tonic, Fever and Ague Specific, etc. but they lack the age of this thing. So I looked in O'dell's book on pontiled medicines and did find a single listing for a Harter's Ague Specific, pontiled but from Dayton Ohio. I thought for sure they began in St. Louis and ended up in Dayton, not the reverse......Since the bottle was not embossed with the city name makes me wonder if this wasn't a slip on O'Dell's part, intending St. Louis instead of Dayton. I guess I need to find the missing tell-all shard from between "Dr." and "ERS"! Thanks for the possible lead as I was unaware Harter's started that early, and would put it right about where the age bottoms out with what I am finding. I looked it up in Fike's book and he also mentions the 1855 start date but failed to mention where he started. (Next to it was a sand chip pontiled green unembossed bitters, possibly an early Hostetters. Even unembossed it would have been a beauty!) Thanks again.......Jack
 

cowseatmaize

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None of any of that explains the same ingredients in a different order and missing vegetable extract but possibly having that omitted and replaced by the word "and" or maybe an ampersand..[:D]
 

cannibalfromhannibal

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I agree, it is a mystery. I suspect if a copycat they changed it up enough to claim some legality but also fool the unsuspecting. Like I mentioned, at a glance I thought it was a Bulls. If it were a Harters, like you say being this far "out west" from NY, they might have thought they could get away with it. But Harters appears to be successful with their own line early enough to not have any need to copy others. I just hope to find the missing piece to "piece" the clues together. It was/is a great bottle. Would love to just see a whole example! Thanks Eric. Will keep posted if I find the missing piece. Jack
 

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