PLEASE HELP! NOT A WAR TIME 7UP?

[bamascavenger]

I have been informed by a fellow by the name of Charles...a seller on EBAY whom i have bought from before. Ebay name = BOTTLEMAN57 He says, That ALL 7ups even through the WAR had the orange red shield. just was able to fade more quickly. NO white bottles were ever made!! Now it gets interesting. Bill Lockharts article in The SODAFIZZ says they do exist. Bill has provided me with a photo. But is there any REAL DOCUMENTATION from the bottlers, Librarys etc.. to which we can turn to? This bottle evidently had the RED it was just removed!! Live and learn. Still a nice bottle though. I do not wish to make anyone mad on this issue, but, who do you believe and where are the facts and the fiction and how do you separate fact from fiction when you do not have any facts, just someones word that they exist and another says they do not? Was I ripped off by a seller? The only info i had to go on was from the SODAFIZZ that these lost thier RED PIGMENTATION due to the war effort in 1942 till 1945! I like the magazine, I do not know Kathy nor Bill and i am not throwing mud. I want REAL answers and the truth. The truth will set you free! BOTTLEMAN57'S/CHARLES EMAIL address is; Thomascahoon@cableone.net and Bill Lockharts is; bottlebill@tularosa.net Let us please make a joint effort to resolve this matter and update collectors, books, magazines and one another. Here is a link for a 1942 for sale and has the RED shield! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260246377131
Here is Charles' WAR 1942 6 OUNCE bottle he sold. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=150251159520
Here is a 1943 WAR TIME BOTTLE WITH THE RED ON IT. So why is it not white? http://cgi.ebay.com/7-UP-7oz-Full-Soda-Pop-Bottle-McCook-Nebraska-FRESH-UP_W0QQitemZ310055271432QQihZ021QQcategoryZ13915QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Thank you in advance, Terry

 

[arthur]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

hey i'm interested. how much arthur

 

[bamascavenger]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

Sorry Arthur, It is not for sale. This one just completed a missing spot in my growing variations of my 7up collection. Also the different phrases on the rear, I have many, but i am missing just 2 more to complete my 1935 to 1950 set. Looking for the phrase, 1. A COOLER OFF A FRESHER UP.....YOU LIKE 7UP/ IT LIKES YOU. 2. TAKES THE OUCH OUT OF GROUCH. FOR HEAVENS SAKE DO NOT STIR OR SHAKE. anyone have these? Thank you for the offer though, Arthur.

 

[TX Big Chief]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

I have bought bottles from Bottleman 57 too and I respect his opinion.However,
this Detroit 7 UP bottle is dated 1943 and I find it hard to believe the red orange paint disappeared from it.I think it was white to begin with.THis bottle only has 7 bubbles and the one Bama Scavenger posted had 8 bubbles.I always thought that
7 Up changed to 7 bubbles in 1938.I guess not.Does anyone know when the change was made to 7 bubbles? Since one bottle is from Flint and the other from Detroit maybe the white label is a Michigan thing.

 

[TX Big Chief]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

Back of bottle above.

 

[OsiaBoyce]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

This is what I'd do. [1] Look at the war time bottles in the Fizz. [1a] See if they're what I had. Meaning no. of bubbles and embossing on neck ect. [2] Would I belive someone who studies this kinda stuff or [2a]someone who sells overpriced bottles. { I've seen bottleman57s stuff and it is way high in my opinion.} [3] I would have to ask myself before I go any farther in this hobby "Will I need documention on every bottle before I buy it?" { I've allways been one to validate orgins of unmarked "expensive bottles". However I have never ask the seller to send me papers proving this.} [4] Deductive logic, again I would ask myself "Maybe I have an earlier or latter version which has had the red to come off.". And that's what I'd do before I got all Mouldery and short of a revolution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H73qxeXWUs&feature=related

 

[morbious_fod]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

I have been questioning the missing red acl theory for a while now. Nearly every one of these supposed "white label only" bottles I have seen when you hold it at an angle and let the ligh play on them show a definate outline where the red part of the label should be. It really makes me wonder if the myth is actually real or collector legend. I have in my collection a 1944 7-up from the seven-up bottling company of Bristol, Tenn-VA, which would put it in the final two years of World War II, this bottle has a nice pretty red acl on it. Shouldn't this bottle be a white label only bottle? This makes me wonder, was this leaving off of the red acl widespread, or was this one or two bottle making companies doing which has lead to the belief that every 7-UP from around this era with acl damage is one of these?

I hate to say it, but even in the two posted you can see what appears to be the top of a warn out acl shield between the 7-up and the top white line. If this isn't the phantom line of a missing acl then what is it? I personally avoid these "white label only" acls if they have the outline of the shield. I don't know what it is about the red acl that would make it wear off first or disolve, but I have a sneaking suspician that there has been a lot of bread made from damaged acl 7-ups due to this myth. All I can say is use your best judgement, who knows maybe I'm wrong, but I still wonder.

 

[thesodafizz]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

Re: Bill Lockhart (for those who don't know who he is).
He's a professor (dean of some dept.) at the University int El Paso. He holds a PhD. and is also a certified archaeologist and his data is used to identify and date digs. He has basically, with what he calls his "Bottle Research Group" (or BRG), re-written Toulouse's Bottle Mark book, correcting numerous mistakes as he goes. (I am always impressed, and awed, by my author's accomplishments.)

Re: bottleman57.
He's a seller on eBay.

Re: me...
Like I tell everyone who I talk to about it - I just take what my authors send me and make it pretty (layout). I give them all the credit because they are the ones that deserve it.

My original purpose for the Soda Fizz has not changed - sharing accurate information so everyone knows!

After all, someone at a show pointed out once that the Soda Fizz is all we soda collectors really have - it must contain correct informaion (because it is used as a reference). Plus, from what I am learning, a bunch of the members on this forum are members of either the PSBCA, FOHBC or both - which shows you want the same thing - accurate answers and information... I am humbly proud to be a part of that.

K

Note: Edited original post to basically say what I intended for it to be in the first place, but it didn't seem to come out that way. Hope this works better. And for anyone who read the original one - perhaps after reading this version, you realize better what I had unsuccessfully been trying to say.

 

[thesodafizz]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

After reading what everyone else said (while I was writing my epic), there are a couple or three (additional) comments I'd like to make.

First of all, let me state that they (my comments) are speculation, because I have nothing to validate it with. But, I am sure Bill (Lockhart) will search for the documentation for me....and clear this up for all of us - for once and for all, because that's the kind of guy he is.

First if all - I agree with TX Big Chief. The bottles I have, as far as I know and I can't look because they are in Tenn. and I am in N.C., the bottles I have with white only labels have no trace outline of anything to show where red may have been. For this reason, I agree with him that I don't think mine ever had red. (But, next trip to Tenn., I'll look to be sure.)

Second, the first bottle had white only (The Gass Purifies), so why not revert to that during war time. Makes sense.....

Another thing that makes sense is perhaps sometimes red was available, and sometimes, it wasn't. Also, perhaps some glass companies used it because they could get it, and maybe others couldn't. Going thru a list of all "white-only" to see if location or glass house (as well as year manufactured) is consistent would indicate that. Maybe some other bottlers were just trying to save money and realized the label worked just fine without red. We have read much documentation that the bottle was the biggest expense in bottling and many went belly up over either not getting them back or because they couldn't afford new ones - so I can see where they'd try to save where they could if they were in financial trouble.

The real question? IF all Seven-Up bottles had the red, even during the war, then why did the red come off some and remain beautifully intact on others? In the ones that have it, it even looks thick. And there's been no bottles half-way off - they are either red, or they aren't. If the red was wearing off, wouldn'we have some in evidence that were partway into wearing off to prove that's what is happening to them? So, could the ones that have "outlines" of a red color have been done thinner than others, for whatever reason, and so, worn off easily? And the last question I wonder about - if the red "disappears" so easily, why does the white remain so perfectly?

Understanding the ACL process - the glass is painted while it is hot, so the color "bakes" into the glass (there's a word for it in glass making lingo, but I am not sure what it is - annealing or something like that). When ACL first began, the bottle was made, then painted, then heated again (baked on) - why two and three color bottles cost so much. Then, like anything else, a more automated system was devised that made it easier - putting the paint on when the glass was still hot, eliminating the process of reheating it after each color. So, it doesn't seem like it was something that would just come off easily. And I don't have any other bottles that I know of with any other color than red that is worn, or wearing, off.

So - I suppose we are going to have to find someone that is still alive that worked at a glass house and might remember how this was done (back in the mid-40s). But who?

Lastly - One of the rumors I have heard - but cannot document or validate - is that when painted labels began, it was truly just painted on, without being heated afterwards. The person who told me this said he had "both kinds" in his collection. I have never seen an ACL that was simply just "painted on" - in other words, you could fleck off the paint with a fingernail kind of thing (except for the newer commemorative Coke bottles - you can scratch off the paint on those - but they are not meant to be reused, going thru a bottle washer with boric acid, or whatever they used to clean them, then re-filled over and over again). All mine, as best I can tell, are the "baked on" version. So, here's one of my unproven tidbits - and being we are talking about this label thing anyway, I'd love to have comments from you on it. (And no, I am not talking about those embossed bottles that someone has painted to make the embossing show up on their shelves.) We all have at least one of those..........

K

 

[TX Big Chief]

RE: Latest WAR TIME 7UP Bottle find!!!

This is getting really interesting.In Bama Scavenger's original post he did not state
the year the Flint Mich bottle was made(if known).That is why I asked the question about when 7UP changed from 8 bubbles to 7 bubbles.I suspect that the bottle was made before the war.If so,then the whole question of the red paint being hard to get because of the war does not apply.If the bottle was made in the 30s,then there would be no reason to avoid using red paint other than to save money on bottles.This theory depends on the year the number of bubbles were changed,
so if was not in the 30s,when was it?