Stoddard, or not stoddard?

[jwpevahouse]

Honestly since there were lots of bottle making companies in the 1850s-1860s in the Eastern states (in NH, MA, CT, PA, NJ, ME and others), and many of them were probably making some type of shorter smaller ale bottle (stubby?) AND the typical larger "cylinder whiskey" (many of them with the word "PATENT" on the shoulder) I think there is no way to know for SURE where any of those bottles were made unless they bear a makers mark, or have a certified provenance going back for many years within a family, OR they were actually dug from a factory site.

The "stubby" bottle posted by "bottles_inc" looks just like a bottle I bought at a yard sale in Kentucky 10-15 years ago. Same dark olive-amber color, very crude applied lip, and "sand" pontiled. I have no idea where it was made. Possibly it could be from Stoddard, but also could have been made by any of lots of other bottle companies.

Also, (this is not about the Stoddard Stubby) but concerning the taller "Cylinder whiskey bottle" types, some were made in the mid-1850s (if not earlier), just an example, in this article by Bill Lockhart he illustrates a very rare mark seen on a cylinder whiskey (MAUL HEBREW & Co) and that bottle can be dated tightly to 1855-1856 .
https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/MOther.pdf
And yes they were made for many years afterward, at least into the 1880s.

Good comments, thanks. Often collectors are tempted to describe black glass bottles as Stoddard since it can add a zero or two to the value. My recent purchase of a black glass porter/ale style bottle was simply to enhance the variety in my collection. I suspect sometimes bottlers chose black glass for ale or porter style bottles to give their product the feel of good ole English ale, a marketing strategy.

 

[jwpevahouse]

Honestly since there were lots of bottle making companies in the 1850s-1860s in the Eastern states (in NH, MA, CT, PA, NJ, ME and others), and many of them were probably making some type of shorter smaller ale bottle (stubby?) AND the typical larger "cylinder whiskey" (many of them with the word "PATENT" on the shoulder) I think there is no way to know for SURE where any of those bottles were made unless they bear a makers mark, or have a certified provenance going back for many years within a family, OR they were actually dug from a factory site.

The "stubby" bottle posted by "bottles_inc" looks just like a bottle I bought at a yard sale in Kentucky 10-15 years ago. Same dark olive-amber color, very crude applied lip, and "sand" pontiled. I have no idea where it was made. Possibly it could be from Stoddard, but also could have been made by any of lots of other bottle companies.

Also, (this is not about the Stoddard Stubby) but concerning the taller "Cylinder whiskey bottle" types, some were made in the mid-1850s (if not earlier), just an example, in this article by Bill Lockhart he illustrates a very rare mark seen on a cylinder whiskey (MAUL HEBREW & Co) and that bottle can be dated tightly to 1855-1856 .
https://sha.org/bottle/pdffiles/MOther.pdf
And yes they were made for many years afterward, at least into the 1880s.

Good comments, thanks.

 

[Harry Pristis]

Interesting talk from experienced collectors. I reviewed Mckearin's BOTTLES, FLASKS, and DR. DYOTT, but didn't find much to illuminate the thread. What WOULD illuminate the thread are IMAGES of the bottles you are describing. How about it?

 

[jerrypev]

Interesting talk from experienced collectors. I reviewed Mckearin's BOTTLES, FLASKS, and DR. DYOTT, but didn't find much to illuminate the thread. What WOULD illuminate the thread are IMAGES of the bottles you are describing. How about it?

I'll attach two photos of the Dyottville whiskey (base and lip) and one of the porter squat. It would be pointless to post the full image I have of the whiskey since relevant details would not be discernible. It is dark olive with a uneven whittled surface. The image of the porter bottle is before cleaning but gives a fairly good representation of it's color and crudity. The early double collar lip they share were shorter and wider at the base, very distinct for late 1840s -early 1850s. The base of both bottles has a deep kickup and similar pontil. Both these bottles come from the Philadelphia area, not that could be used to determine the maker but is interesting.
This threat exposes the slippery slope of trying to identify makers of plain not embossed bottles generally. It's particularly troublesome since I notice collectors are quick to ID black glass bottles or dark amber as Stoddard. Actually most of the examples I see on the internet are a medium amber. Black glass by it's strictest definition is not amber, but a dark olive green with a tint of amber. Both my bottles are identical in color and huge and meet this definition.
I've tried to determine when the double collar lip began to be used but found it was simply an evolution from colonial era bottles with two rings of glass laid around the lip to a more mechanically formed lip using a tool by the 1850s.
In the end it would be interesting to know the maker of the black glass porter but I doubt it's possible. Dyott could have made the bottle, but also a few dozen other mid Victorian glass works.

 

[Harry Pristis]

Well, Jerry, I can't disagree with what you present. I've always understood that Stoddard glass tended to be peppered with micro- to seed bubbles. I don't have a porter that I can claim as Stoddard glass. I do have a couple of demijohns that I've decided are from Stoddard, even though they are unmarked.

 

[jwpevahouse]

Well, Jerry, I can't disagree with what you present. I've always understood that Stoddard glass tended to be peppered with micro- to seed bubbles. I don't have a porter that I can claim as Stoddard glass. I do have a couple of demijohns that I've decided are from Stoddard, even though they are unmarked.

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Nice collection of early bottles, possibly a few 18th century included.

 

[Harry Pristis]

I am fond of 18th C. bottles.