Vernors Ginger Ale 150th B-Day

[VernorsGuy]

Happy Labor Day!

When I was a kid, and I suspect when many of you were kids, every drug store had a soda fountain. In fact, every five and dime had one, too.

I would love to find proof of the 1866 Vernor's soda fountain. In the absence of that proof ( depending on what Bob has up his sleeves) I think we have some evidence that points to the probability:
- James Vernor worked at a drug store, Higby & Stearns
- Higby & Stearns had a soda fountain
- Stearns went on to wholesale soda fountain equipment
- James had soda fountain experience (even Bob will give me that one)

This one is a bit of a leap:
- James opened up his own drug store in the image of the one he knew best, Higby & Stearns.

The question to me is, if all drug stores had soda fountains why wouldn't James Vernor's drug store have one? Especially if that was a comfortable skill?

His is location at Woodward and Clifford was considered too far north of the central business district to succeed. So, he had to be a creative entrepreneur. He was the CVS of the 1860s, selling everything from cigars to flowers in addition to his main prescription business. Why not soda pop?

I know the answer - we don't have proof.

But, I think the reason it wasn't advertised was he never imagined it was going to be his "hit" product. To me, I think he thought flowers were going to be his fortune. There was quite a bit of effort advertising that part of his business. The soda pop was no big deal. Just something every drug store sold. Flowers - now that was different!

 

[VernorsGuy]

James Vernor Florist cards. Sorry for my newness with posting photos. The order was changed from how I posted them. Photos 1 and 3 go together. Photos 2 and 4 go together. Photos 5 and 6 go together. Front and back of florist cards.

 

[hemihampton]

I like those Extract Bottles. Nice. LEON.

 

[SODABOB]

Keith

Happy Labor Day to you, too.

First of all, thanks for the great pictures of some great bottles. If you haven't done so already, there are advanced collectors of medicinal-type bottles who can possibly date your Vernor's extract bottles within a few years of when they were made. Even if they were reused, a knowledgeable collector should be able zero-in on how and when they were made. They might even be able to use your pictures for a circa date. The business cards are especially cool. They are in amazingly good shape.

Speaking of cards ...

You're right, I do have something up my sleeve. I wouldn't exactly call it an Ace of spades, but it might qualify as a King of spades. I'm working on it now and hope to have it posted later today. It will include some additional comments in reply to yours.

I'll be back!

Bob

(I selected this particular card because of the bottle the King is holding)

 

[iggyworf]

Nice bottles and cards. Kieth, thanx for jumping in on this. I know I have not contributed a lot but still love it.

 

[SODABOB]

First things first!

Please know, and I mean this sincerely, I'm as eager as anyone to find confirmation ...

1. That James Vernor had some type of soda fountain in his first location at 219/235 Woodward Avenue.

2. That James Vernor had some type of soda fountain at that location prior to about 1880.

3. That James Vernor actually served and sold some type of fountain drink at that location.

4. That James Vernor created and served his Ginger Ale at that location prior to about 1880.

5. That James Vernor invented his Ginger Ale in 1866 as 99.9% of the accounts claim.

Additionally ...

I do not now, nor have I ever doubted that James Vernor established his first drug store in 1866.


However, I do call into question whether he had a soda fountain and served his Ginger Ale at that original location.

One of the reasons I say this is because in his own words and own handwriting he stated on his 1911 trademark application ...

"The trademark has been continuously used in my business since about January 1st, 1880"



If he created his Ginger Ale in 1866, or even 1876, then why did he say "About January 1st,1880"




Another reason I say this is because the earliest time-period publication I can find that uses the words "James Vernor" and "Ginger Ale" in the same sentence is dated June 28, 1884.




Furthermore ...

If James Vernor had a soda fountain at 219/235 Woodward Avenue and served his Ginger Ale there as early as 1866-1868, then why, among the easy to find and numerous ads about flowers, cigars, etc; is there not a single ad about his soda fountain or Ginger Ale? From 1866 to 1884 is 18 years. 18 years seems like an extremely long time to be involved in business and various forms of advertising and not, at least occasionally, advertise your soda fountain and what was served there.

And yet ...

Even with all the doubts and negative press I have contributed to this discussion, I remain open minded to the point where I'm willing to share what I call a "King of Spades" up my sleeve that will hopefully add a new spin to this discussion and give some of us reason to believe that ...

(To be continued) :flag:

 

[SODABOB]

Meet ...

James Walker Tufts

Born: 1835
Died: 1902

This link opens to the best bio I can find for him - From 1894

https://books.google.com/books?id=I...nepage&q=James Tufts Arctic Trademark&f=false



Inventor and manufacture of ...

The Arctic Soda-Water Apparatus

This is the earliest Patent I can find for James Walker Tufts (But there may be earlier ones)

Patented: April 27, 1869








1871 Article/Ad - "Boston Journal of Chemistry"



1874 Book (Considered rare and valuable)



Page from book




(To be continued with "The King of Spades")

 

[SODABOB]

By the way, it was Keith who inspired me to come up with the term "King of Spades" when he said ...

"I would love to find proof of the 1866 Vernor's soda fountain. In the absence of that proof (depending on what Bob has up his sleeves) ... "

And the reason I say "King of Spades" and not "Ace of Spades" is because an Ace is often a sure winner, whereas a King is, well, not a sure thing compared to an Ace. In other words, the following is not, in my opinion, absolute confirmation that James Vernor operated a soda fountain at his original location, but it does give us reason to ask ...

1. Where did he get the Arctic Soda Fountain mentioned in this newspaper snippet from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1868



2. Did he buy it new and personally "use" it for "ten days" or was he possibly selling it for some other reason? And if he didn't use it for ten days, then who did?

Notice in this next article, posted by Keith earlier, that the Stearn's drug store sold a variety of different soda fountains, but they did not sell the "Tufts' Arctic" soda fountains. I wonder why?

Detroit Free Press ~ April 7, 1867



The best explanation I can find as to why Stearn's did not sell "Arctic" soda fountains might be found in this advertisement from ...

The Detroit Free Press ~ May 22, 1867

Notice where it says ...

"W. Johnston, 155 Jefferson Avenue, Detroit, ......... is my authorized Agent"



W. Johnston was still selling them in 1868



And still selling them in 1869

Notice where it says ...

"Michigan Agent"




Notice in this article from September 19, 1868 where it describes the Arctic as ...

"... having receptacles for ten or twelve different kinds of syrup"

(Compare this description to the pictures of the Arctic I posted earlier)




So, as you can hopefully see, I'm leaving the door wide open for the possibility ...

1. That James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from W. Johnston.
2. That James Vernor "used" the Arctic Soda Fountain himself for ten days.
3. That James Vernor decided to sell it because he didn't like it, or possibly to upgrade to a different one.

However, and this is the tricky part, and why I said a "King" and not an "Ace," because everything I just posted is pure speculation on my part and might not amount to a hill of beans unless research allows such conjectures and speculations to become truth regardless of what the actual facts might be. In other words, I'm taking a single newspaper ad about James Vernor selling a used Arctic Soda Fountain and using that advertisement to suggest he did indeed have a soda fountain in his original location at 219/235 Woodward Avenue. Which I have to admit is kind of weak evidence, and why I would prefer something more substantial. And yet, because of the likelihood that James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from William Johnston, it does make me wonder why he would do that if not to use it himself.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - but truth and proof are dependent on facts and not conjecture or speculation!

So there you have it! My "King of Spades" (up my sleeve). I don't know if it will prove anything, but it should definitely give us something to think about.

Bob ... a.k.a Sodabob

 

[SODABOB]

P.S.

To summarize in a single sentence ...

Because of the likelihood that James Vernor bought the Arctic Soda Fountain from William Johnston, it makes me wonder why he would do that unless he intended to use it himself?

 

[SODABOB]

In Search of ...