American Bottle Auction

[GuntherHess]

a lot of buyers out there now who don't understand that the bottles are mostly dug

a lot of people dont realize potatoes grow in the dirt....

 

[baltbottles]

but I do think there are a lot of buyers out there now who don't understand that the bottles are mostly dug

I don't really think that statement is true when dealing with high end bottles. If you look at figural bitters and Historical flasks. A higher percentage seem to be house found examples rather then dug. These are pretty bottles and people saved them. Also they are large bottles that don't survive well in the ground. I would think that 75 percent of those categories are non dug examples.

If you look at pontiled medicines and sodas on the other hand. The exact opposite would apply, these were common everyday bottles and were usually thrown away and not saved. So a larger percentage of them will be dug then are found in attics and the such. Also being smaller bottles they tend to survive better.

From the stand point of a digger I have dug thousands of bottles and many of them were pre 1870s. I'm sure I have dug over 1000 pontiled medicines and sodas over the years. Historical flasks I have found about a dozen, cathedral pickles I have found 4, and good bitters I have found 1. I don't think this makes me an incompetent or unlucky digger. It just shows me that many of the larger high end bottles seen at shows were more likely found indoors or under a house or in a wall and were never actually buried in the ground.

So from the stand point of a soda collector I know that most likely any bottle I buy has probably been dug where as the figural bitters collector can bet that most of his collection was not dug.

Chris

 

[tigue710]

I'd agree Chris, flasks and figural bitters were mostly keepsakes, and bottle collecting actually started with such bottles being sought out by collectors who visited people homes looking for them as early as the 1920's... But in general bottles are dug, and the bottle in question I would assume was dug or found where it was thrown away, not being a figural or flask.

To say mostly dug is not true of high end bottles I don't think is right, given so many and even the most expensive bitters ever sold were and was dug

 

[baltbottles]

Matt,

What percentage of bottles sold through Hecklers are dug? or are tumbled? I bet the percentage is quite low. And Norm will mention that a bottle has been cleaned. And only a very small percentage of bottles come out of the ground and wash up mint. most will at least have some minor haze or ground imperfections.

If you look at most auctions the top end pieces tend to be mint uncleaned and most likely not dug bottles.

You also have to take the type of glass and soil where it was buried into consideration. The bottle in question is a type of glass that doesn't stain very easily. Also any bottle found in pure clay tends to clean up very well. Ash and privy soil tends to degrade bottles quite rapidly.

Using dug and attic mint are probably not the best descriptive terms for the hobby. Because a dug bottle that had no chemical interaction with the soil it was in will show no degradation of its surface. And could easily be mistaken as an attic found example.

And an attic found bottle that was used to store some chemical can easily have a very hazy interior. And could be mistaken as a dug bottle.

When looking at 1890s blob beers I'm generally going to assume that most were dug and when looking at pontiled flasks I'm going to assume most were found in doors at some time.

Like I said I think it just comes down to the type of bottle you are looking at. And I have noticed that higher end bottles tend to be less likely to have been tumbled so its more likely they were not dug or dug under perfect circumstances where they would not exhibit any signs of having been in the ground.

A good example would be New England chestnut flasks and pitkin flasks.... How many of them have been tumbled? How many have you seen dug?

Chris

 

[kungfufighter]

ORIGINAL: baltbottles

Matt,

What percentage of bottles sold through Hecklers are dug? or are tumbled? I bet the percentage is quite low. And Norm will mention that a bottle has been cleaned. And only a very small percentage of bottles come out of the ground and wash up mint. most will at least have some minor haze or ground imperfections.

If you look at most auctions the top end pieces tend to be mint uncleaned and most likely not dug bottles.

You also have to take the type of glass and soil where it was buried into consideration. The bottle in question is a type of glass that doesn't stain very easily. Also any bottle found in pure clay tends to clean up very well. Ash and privy soil tends to degrade bottles quite rapidly.

Using dug and attic mint are probably not the best descriptive terms for the hobby. Because a dug bottle that had no chemical interaction with the soil it was in will show no degradation of its surface. And could easily be mistaken as an attic found example.

And an attic found bottle that was used to store some chemical can easily have a very hazy interior. And could be mistaken as a dug bottle.

When looking at 1890s blob beers I'm generally going to assume that most were dug and when looking at pontiled flasks I'm going to assume most were found in doors at some time.

Like I said I think it just comes down to the type of bottle you are looking at. And I have noticed that higher end bottles tend to be less likely to have been tumbled so its more likely they were not dug or dug under perfect circumstances where they would not exhibit any signs of having been in the ground.

A good example would be New England chestnut flasks and pitkin flasks.... How many of them have been tumbled? How many have you seen dug?

Chris

Chris, THANK YOU, again, for being a voice of reason.

 

[tigue710]

I totally agree, and like I said I wouldn't expect a flask to have been dug, I have seen a lot of geometric inks dug and heard of a pitkin being dug from an old timer. They are out there but not many. Some bottles are also well cleaned and not tumbled to death and it can't be said wether they are attic or dug bottles. One dump I dug was a filled in creek and swamp and a good majority of the bottles that came out looked like they were made yesterday. Anyway my original comment was that in general, the majority of all bottles out there are dug, and I think that's an important thing for investor collectors to understand, we collect somebody's old garbage, not coins here...

 

[annie44]

Here is a link to a follow-up post by the auctioneer:

http://americanbottle.com/blog/?p=488

I can't believe that he admits that he suggested his customer who asked for a refund "see a professional" - I think he meant a mental health professional, but perhaps he meant an antique bottle professional, since he himself sure hasn't shown any "professionalism" lately.

I have no idea who the customer is, but I find it appalling how he/she was treated by American Bottle Auctions.

Makes me even more grateful for our own kungfufighter and earlyglass. Both have always treated me respectfully, even though I know I am a customer who buys only their "lower end" items. They will answer questions and send me prices and pictures, even knowing that at the end of the day I likely will say "thanks for the info but I just can't afford it!" Although I have never had occasion to return a bottle to either Jeff or Mike, due to the fact that they very accurately describe the bottle I am interested in, I know that either one would take a return from me with no problem at all, and certainly no public harassment.

 

[baltbottles]

I don't think all bottles were viewed as trash. I doubt the northbend cabin bottles were ever viewed as trash. I doubt many colored flasks and figural bitters were viewed as trash. Most sodas and beers had a deposit so that they would be returned. Most druggists would buy their own empty bottles back. Many people made their living in the used bottle business.

I simply think assuming anything without asking questions about the bottle is an amateurish approach to collecting. Then simply taking someone else at their word just because they have read something in a book. Is also not the most smart thing to do.

I have noticed that things I was told and read about 10 years ago are now thought to be totally wrong.... So as research is done and more experience is gained more questions will be answered and more will be asked to replace them.

As for bottles being cleaned and not being able to tell them apart from a non dug bottle is simply not true. The surface will always show to be different at a magnified level.... examine some wear on an attic bottle with a 10x loop and then look at the wear on a lightly cleaned bottle with the same loop and you will see what I'm talking about.

A light cleaning usually will not remove and wear but it will under magnification show a smoothing of the edge of this wear. I have also noticed that you generally don't need a loop to see this with most cleaned bottles. And on top of that the feel of the glass is just different....

All I know is if I was shelling out big bucks on a bottle that was said to be mint I expect a bottle that doesn't show the signs of being dug and or tumbled. If I was told the bottle was dug I'd expect it to have stain and or ground imperfections....

Like I said before the term attic mint is not a very good term to use. To me mint means a bottle that shows no signs of having been dug or tumbled and may have some very minor wear associated with its usage. Dug means a bottle that shows signs of surface degradation associated with being burred in the ground. Cleaned means a bottle that has been altered from its originally found condition by some non natural process.

Just my 2 cents
Chris

 

[tigue710]

That's a little out on a limb for me, every utilitarian object is trash to someone... Many bottle were made to be kept but to someone they would could and most have been trash... Yes recycling was big business, bottles are embossed not to be sold and even thou shalt not steal, but so were they thrown away. Remember most fancy designs were advertising gimmicks, and that's it. I have a Stetson bottle of aftershave that will never be trash to me, but many many people who bought or recieved as a gift will throw the same bottle away, some of them full and unopened... Somethings that are collected for value though, like coins were never mention to thrown away, and the grading system and expectations of collectors is quite high, were as bottle collectors ought to expect a good chance of a large percentage of the bottles available out there to have been thrown away and then recovered by diggers...

On that note I have long felt that a better grading system is due in our hobby, and think attic mint is a term that as a serious collector I understand for what it is, undug... But can be very confusing to someone who isn't familiar with the lingo, cause after all that's all it is, there isn't a grading system...

I didn't know that examination with a loop could indicate a tumble, although it's quite obvious now that I think about it, so I stand corrected... I guess to me that's not so important, as long as the thing doesn't look like it was in a rock tumbler, and because I do not buy any high end bottles...

Again I agree with everything else, I think though that the bottle was well represented, but the truth is it doesn't have anything to do with me, and I haven't seen the bottle in person... Infant I probably shouldn't know anything about the whole matter, the should of got his refund no questions and that should of been it. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking CEO feedback from the community, I've been very frustrated myself before... But really, it doesn't have anything to do with me nor should it...

 

[tigue710]

Ugh! Why can't I go back and edit my post! Stupid spell check even corrects proper spelling cause it thinks I should use a totally different word! I can't stand this dumb phone... I gotta break down and buy a computer...