Are the GI 95 and 97 and the GII 52, historical flasks the oldest made?

[Steve/sewell]

Good information everyone it is good to see people debate and talk about what they have discovered.
There is always room for improvement in ones bottle portfolio and getting people to share their information
is a great thing for the forum.Jeff sorry for any critcism shown your way it was uncalled for.Same to you Mike
I value both of your intellects in this hobby and would go no further than ask either one of questions regaurding early glass.
Same goes for you Chris at baltbottles and Guntherhess and Red Matthews when it comes to early glass.I have some more
posts planned in the coming days and weeks and hopefully everyone will add their piece to the knowledge glass puzzle
at this forum.

 

[earlyglass]

Steve, There is nothing better than discussing real early American glass... we all enjoy it, and it is a constant learning experience. I appreciate your comments, and your contributions to the forum and the hobby. By the way, I have a crate full of shards in the house, and will be taking some pictures later. Yup, we are glass geeks!

 

[earlyglass]

OK Steve, Back at you with a New England flask...

Here is the very rare GIV-16 Eagle Masonic flask (one of my favorites). Sure it is New England, but does anyone have any speculation as to where it was produced, and why? I will narrow it down, as you might guess... the choices would be:

1. Coventry, CT
2. Mt. Vernon, NY
3. Keene, NH
4. Other

I will be happy to give you my thoughts after I have heard from others! Also, keep in mind that there is no real documentation or shards that I am aware of, only speculation and the basis for that determination. In other words, no wrong answers!

Mike

 

[Steve/sewell]

Alright Mike Ill give it a stab.The color could place it in any one of the works you listed.
The style of the Masonic design looks to be Keene.
However the surrated edge on the bottle is different than any of the other masonic flasks attributed to
the New England glass houses.So my guess would be................................Mt. Vernon, NY
As the style of the lip of the bottle looks like spring water bottles and maybe this one, here in this picture you have seen this right?[][]

 

[earlyglass]

Seen it... drooled over it. Have seen one in person too!

Good thoughts Steve. We should give others a chance to add some thoughts as well.

I will add a picture comparing the Masonic arches... a GI-88 (Mt. Vernon), a GIV-21 (Keene) and a GI-83 (Coventry).

 

[Steve/sewell]

Let me clarify something I have always considered New York as Dutch not English so I dont include people places or things from
New York as New England.Thats what I meant by (Different than any of the other masonic flasks attributed to New England glass houses).
I wasnt really including Mt. Vernon in that statement..........New York is its own place isnt it?

 

[earlyglass]

We'll call them Glasshouses of the Northeast!

I was following you. However, I have often caught myself including NY as a New England glasshouse. Obviously it is not, however there are very strong similarities in glass quality, color and mold forms between the Mt. Vernon glass and the NH and CT glasshouses.... as shown in the last image.

 

[Steve/sewell]

Just like the Stangers and Samuel Huffsey affected the glass look all over the Mid Atlantic and the Mid West,
some one in New England and New York affected the style of the Masonic, Sunburst , and eagle flasks similarly.
Do you know who that person might be Mike/Jeff ?

 

[earlyglass]

Steve, The moldmakers are artists that simply do not get any appreciation for thier elaborate and beautiful designs. Although some glasshouses may have had moldmakers on the premises, most were purchased by independent mold makers. You can see regional influences and molds that have been shared amonst factories. To place one influence to the New England molds, I cannot. McKearin notes a South Boston Moldmaker, Bartholomew, as being a major source to the New England market. Often molds were altered, as we have seen... the GIV-1 and the GIV-2. The change from JP (Justus Perry) to HS (Henry Schoolcraft) during the change of management. I will say this... for a country that had very little in the way of communication, it seems that "style" traveled quickly. The masonic arch was used throughout New England, and quickly spread through the Midwest (GIV-32) and Midlantic (GIV-37). More research needs to be done on the moldmakers and the inception of particular mold motifs. Were the designs commission or simply selected and customized?

 

[baltbottles]

Steve,

I always enjoy reading your posts. You have spent alot of time researching the early New Jersey and Pa glasshouses. And I have learned quit a bit from some of your posts. I will offer my opinions where I can usually based on seeing fragments in datable contexts.

Mike,

To me the arch looks most similar to that of the Keen GIV-21. But that could simply mean the same mold maker produced both molds or one flask was the model for the other. I agree with Steve that the lip reminds me of early black glass porters and saratoga waters.

Chris