COCA COLA QUESTION / QUANDARY

[SODAPOPBOB]

f_d_l ~

I looked around to see if I could find a reference to an O-Cola hutchinson bottle, but didn't find anything. As for the Cecil Munsey link you provided, which I am familiar with and even met Cecil at a bottle show once, one thing is for certain; In 1885 there were no Crown top soda bottles, which weren't invented until 1892 by William Painter, so the Wilson's boxes undoubtedly were intended for hutchinson bottles.

Even though I was unable to purchase that particular red box, which was the primary topic of this thread, I will always wonder whether it was a Hutch box or not. And because I was never able to examine it closely enough, I will also never know if the more recent looking stenciling was painted over some older brand name.

However, notice in the picture of the red box below ...

1. The Hinges.
2. The wording ... "When Empty Return To"

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

And now compare the hinges and the wording on this Coca Cola box from Alan Petretti's book ... plus the date he indicates.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

PS ~

Reminder ...

I researched the McFerson & Foster Company and discovered they were a box factory in Evansville, Indiana and were established in 1883 and closed in 1962.

Bob

 

[celerycola]

While it has been documented that Hutchinson bottles were in use as late as World War I they were not widely used after 1910-12. Most of these so-called "Hutchinson Crates" were intended for and only used for Crown finish bottles. It cost a bottler extra to have a brand name (Coca-Cola, Chero-Cola, etc.) or his initials (for an independent bottler) cut into a mold so it would appear on his bottles. It was worth it because the bottle bottoms were visible in the industry standard "holes-in-the-bottom" crates. Most of these crates post-dated the use of Hutchinson bottles.

Many but not all bottle manufacturers had a crate manufacturing plant alongside the glass factory. If an order was for bottles AND cases the bottles would be packed in the cases. If the order was for bottles only they were packed in barrels with straw for cushioning. There are recorded complaints by some bottlers regarding the number of bottles received broken. Larger bottlers would order their bottles by railcar lots.

ORIGINAL: SODAPOPBOB
Celery ~

I'm no expert on Hutchinson bottles nor on shipping boxes, but I am a little confused where you stated ...

"most of these so-called "Hutchinson Crates" never went anywhere near a Hutch bottle."

Maybe I'm assuming incorrectly, but based on the 1906 catalog it seems probabale that Hutchinson bottles were shipped in boxes. What exactly do you mean by your comment above?

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

celery ~

Thanks for the follow up.

I think part of my confusion regarding the crates/boxes is because I primarily think of them as being used for bottles distributed from local bottlers to local grocers and not from the bottle maker to the bottler. Isn't that why some of them say "When Empty Return To?" And if they were used between local bottlers and grocers, why would this not have been a practice during the Hutchinson era? Surely they used some type of wood box/crate to transport them around town. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, so please correct me, but I can't help but think what you are saying is that they didn't use wood boxes/crates for Hutchinson bottles. And if not, then what did they use?

Thanks again

Bob

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

This link pertains to both types of boxes for hutchinson bottles ... (Long distance and local)

http://www.hutchbook.com/Bottling%20Process%20Shipping%20Cases/Default.htm

[ Long distance example ]

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

[ Local examples ]

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Please be reminded this thread was started two years ago in January of 2011 and that the red box in question is long gone and never to be seen again. As most of you know, I was unable to purchase it. Also know that I have re-read this thread several times and fully aware of the various opinions expressed and that I am not trying to turn what very well may be an early 1900s box into a late 1800s box if the evidence does not support it. However, speaking of such evidence, I am reminded of the test I did back in 2011 when I discovered the lid would not close when it held the 1915 patent hobbleskirts (which were actually first distributed in 1917), but that it would close when it held either straight-sided or hutchinson bottles. Thus, I am still of the opinion that it dates sometime prior to 1917.

Consequently, I feel the following question is a valid one ...

Is it even remotely possible the red box in question was in fact made during the late 1800s and not the early 1900s and possibly used for hutchinson bottles?

( I fully acknowledge it was repainted later with a newer variation of the Coca Cola stenciling typical of the 1920s and 1930s).

Please note my question does not involve whether the box was intended for long distance or local use, as that is the subject of another aspect, but rather my question only pertains to when it was made?

Lastly, if you feel it could not possibly have been made in the late 1800s and used for hutchinson bottles, please explain to us in detail how you arrived at that conclusion? (Other than just general opinion).

Thanks again to all

Bob

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

I wanted to post this earlier but it took me until now to find the links again. McFerson & Foster can be difficult to research because it is often spelled McPherson with an h. But I generally use the spelling that was on the box itself. Anyway, I mainly wanted to share a couple of references indicating the company was established in the early 1880s, which was during the hutchinson bottle era. I can't find the link from a couple of years ago showing the 1883 date.

Mcferson and Foster box factory [1884] SE corner of Bellevue and Iowa. [ Evansville, Indiana ]

http://historicevansville.com/site.php?id=mcfersonfoster


This next reference is from Google Books and dated 1899

http://books.google.com/books?id=7fx6nN0QYXgC&pg=RA8-PA36&dq=McPHerson+%26amp;+Foster+Box+Company+Evansville+Indiana&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PMzlUOukB6mFiAKm4ICADw&ved=0CEkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=McPHerson%20%26amp%3B%20Foster%20Box%20Company%20Evansville%20Indiana&f=false

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

PS ~

Regarding the 1899 Google Books reference, click on the blue "Page 36" for a full image of the page. And from there you can speed scroll to the first page to see the 1899 publication date.