Colored Pontiled Utility W/Label

[deepbluedigger]

This thread is going in an interesting direction.

I've got a couple of small, early, embossed flint glass pontils that I'm 90% sure are American made even though they look English (a Turlingtons and a Rowlands) and a couple that I'm 99.9% sure are American (including a Byam's Opodeldoc).

For a couple of years I've been trying to track down excavation reports of any pre-1840 US glasshouses that might back that up but without success so far. I'm in the very early stages of research for a book on UK pontils. It would be good to make some progress on this US vs British question for pre-1840 stuff as it's a recurring problem. Any help that anyone here can give would be appreciated (and properly acknowledged).

Jerry

 

[tigue710]

From what I can find no American glass houses used this type of pontil, all bottles of the period that are for sure amerian have a tubular pontil. Early publications from the time period are loaded with advertisements for imported vials from England, and there is documentation of American glass houses in heavy competion with British glass importers. The style of the vial is wrong for American bottles of the period, although it's possible American glass houses were making vials in this style prior to 1820, the pontil being the exception...

 

[CazDigger]

Hi Matt, I have to disagree with you on the pontil issue. I have personally studied many, many shards dug at the Mt Vernon Glassworks site from early digs there and have seen several bases with that type of pontil. The vast majority had tubular pontils, but small vials, tiny free blown aqua inks and flint glass meds that used that type. Bixby Bill posted a while ago an HH Reynolds Batavia (NY) flint glass bottle that was made there (confirmed by shards) with that same type of pontil. I am sure that since many glassbowers traveled from Europe (England and Germany esp.) they didn't leave their preferred techniques in the old country. I agree they are not common, but I think that has as much to do with the early vintage of that style (probably pre-1830) and the scarcity of whole bottles surviving from that early time.

 

[tigue710]

That's interesting, I'd have to see the shards... I did mean to say There are also sand chip pontils that are early american, but ive never seen that type here. I've dug and owned quite a few English bottles with that very exact type of pontil, and have dug shards of those vials in that color through out new england, far from new York and in areas that would have had no
Trade with mt Vernon. I'm still high skeptical in knowing that thousands upon thousands of the exact type vials, with the English color, lip, pontil and shape were imported here at the time.

 

[CazDigger]

Here is a tiny indelible ink found locally in Central NY with a solid rod pontil.

Also a shard dug at Mt Vernon from an unidentified flint glass med with
....RS
.....L embossed on the side. I have seen other shards with solid pontils that I don't have in my possession.

Also listed on ebay is this early prob. philly med that looks Engish but is probably not.....BYAMS

 

[CazDigger]

Matt, I don't doubt that many, most?? of the early bottles of that type could be English in origin. All I'm saying is that they were made here too. You are assuming that the vials you dug were English, but you cannot tell for sure, esp. based only on color, form or pontil. Just like as Mike (EarlyGlass) said, many times the color, shapes and lip finishes at Vernon are nearly identical to NH and Conn. glasshouses. I would love to know if anyone else has seen this type of pontil from Keene, Pitkin or New Jersey glassworks site???

 

[Steve/sewell]

Give me a few minutes and Ill show you some Stiegel products very similar to ones just posted.

 

[Steve/sewell]

Okay here are two very small glass items found on West Stiegel street in Manheim during the 1980 Street renovation project.Being that the two glass items were found within 100 feet of the original factory and are quite deformed in finish it is logical to assume they were factory rejects and were destined for the cullet heap.The color on these matches known Stiegel glass products. Caz your bottle and this one are close cousins in every aspect.The pontils on each item match closely to the ones being posted here.The two items are pictured here first with two Turlington bottles for a size comparison.

 

[Steve/sewell]

The pontils on each item up close.

 

[Steve/sewell]

Another size comparison.