Hartwig Kantorowicz varities...

[jaymshultz]

Hartwig Kantorowicz was 100% a Jewish owned company that started in 1823 in Posen, Germany (now Poznan, Poland).

For those who read Polish

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:cFAn37tNAcYJ:www.glos.com/index.php%3Farch%3D1%26d%3D03-11-08%26k%3Dgp%26f%3D30-35

 

[jaymshultz]

As for the other topic in this string….

There have never been Christian Jews. That term is an oxymoron. 2000 years ago the first followers of Jesus were Jewish, but they still were 100% Jews and did not consider Jesus to be divine or anymore the son of God than any other man. Some believed that Jesus could have been the messiah, but there had always been, both before and after, potential messiah figures that had some Jews believing in them. Since Jesus did not bring about the final redemption that brought the world to fulfill the prophecies in the Bible, the Jews rejected him as the messiah.

The bigger issue for these early followers of Jesus as a potential messiah was whether or not to continue to follow the laws of the Bible as taught to the Jews by God at Mount Sinai. Since Jesus himself followed all of the laws of God and preached that the laws of God should stay intact, those Jews who thought him to be the messiah could still worship with the rest of the nation and still marry with the rest of the nation.

According to the New Testament (and I am not one to normally quote the NT) Jesus said in his sermon on the mount; "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mtt 5:17-20)

Jesus said explicitly that not one jot or tittle should be ignored in the law. Of course Jesus said this, after all he was an observant learned Jew and his legacy was drastically altered so Paul could spread monotheism to the pagans. As a Jew, Jesus knew that after the messiah came and the prophecies of the Bible were fulfilled, things would be different to a degree. This was all that he was saying. But even if Jesus was the messiah, he had not yet fulfilled the conditions that the messiah must fulfill (bring world peace, build the Third Temple with the Holy Ark etc...) so the Jews knew that the full extent of the laws must still stay intact. If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Here are some other New Testament quotes that prove that Jesus preached the continued following of strict Jewish Biblical law...

§.Matt 23:23 ...Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

§.Luke 11:42 ...Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

§.Matt 23:1-3 ...Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

It was only the later additions by John and Paul that made the idea of being Jewish and thinking that Jesus could have been the messiah impossible.

It was only when the pagan followers of Jesus began not practicing the laws of the Bible, that the Jewish majority shunned the followers of Jesus as a separate religion and no longer "kosher" in the eyes of the Bible.

This is also when for the first time Jesus's followers began seeing Jesus as not a man who was the messiah, but as God himself. The early Jewish followers of Jesus never considered him to be divine in that way at all. To do so would have been obvious idolatry since worshiping anything (form, idea, concept or otherwise) that anthropomorphizes or creates worship of an intermediary between man and God is idolatrous. The concept that God had a son that was at the same time a part of God to be worshipped is idolatrous for Jews. This notion only came about as a much later addition to early Christianity to appease the pagans that were trying to be proselytized to. It was comforting for pagans to see vast similarities in the new religion to their own, so similarities were created (think of Zeus impregnating human women, think of Christmas and pagan worship during the winter solstice, think of the images of Apollo and images of Jesus with the long flowing hair and Greek features)

Paul (Saul) was the Jewish man who came up with the brilliant marketing plan to both spread the concept of monotheism to the pagan world, while at the same time detaching the option of Jews falling into this "new lawless religion". Paul made it acceptable for the first time to both follow Jesus as the messiah and not follow the laws of the Bible. As soon as he did this, the Jews rejected the possibility of Jesus being the messiah and most of the Jewish followers of Jesus moved on. The pagans on the other hand had no concept of a messiah or even a single all powerful God. So Paul needed to give them a God to worship. It was then that Jesus went from the Biblical idea of messiah to this new made idea for pagans that he was God himself. Of course Paul had to make it acceptable for the pagans to be Christians and not follow the laws of the Bible (which was a neat trick considering Jesus himself followed the laws strictly and preached that they should stay intact). Paul knew that it was not easy to spread monotheism with difficult laws such as circumcision and eating only kosher food etc...to the pagan world, so he told them it was fine to not follows the laws that the Jews know are necessary for their survival. This was a smart strategic move for Paul. He was able to spread Jewish morals and the knowledge of one God to the pagans without proselytizing Judaism, which Jews are not supposed to do in the first place.

The messiah is supposed to be a man from the family line of the house of King David. In Judaism the religion vests from the mother, but since the family lineage and tribal affiliation are paternal, Jesus supposingly having no mortal biological father could not have been from the bloodline of David. This of course is just one of the many reasons that the Jews do not consider Jesus to be the messiah. And even if, as the Jews believe, Jesus had two biological parents and was not a special son of God, he did not fulfill the duties of the messiah including; bringing the entire world to monotheism, all Jews returning to Israel and the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem.

Anyway, its great that all of the pagans in Europe came to finally agree with the Jews. Its quite ironic that those pagans who had been sacrificing humans, ignoring the poor and cripple and persecuting the Jews for having this insane idea that there is only one God who was invisible and all powerful now are great champions of monotheism around the globe.

For more reading on this subject you can go to...

http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp

and

http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/WORLD_PERFECT_The_Jewish_Impact_on_Civilization.asp

 

[GuntherHess]

wow, that's some serious religious text you got there...
I think I have a bottle somewhere in my basement that has a toe bone of John the Baptist in it.
I'll post a photo if I can find it...

 

[jaymshultz]

.

 

[jaymshultz]

Not mine...wish it was!

 

[jaymshultz]

also not mine...wish it was

 

[capsoda]

Ok, Technically you are correct and I wasn't trying to put forth any theological information. I was simply stating that both symbols were used by the followers of Jesus who are known as Christian Jews { modern slang } to most people now days. I know the proper term is Christian Hebrew because I know my heritage and I know the Bible because I read it.

There is still time.[8|]

 

[southern Maine diver]

WOW...

In the words of Ray Ramano's father "Frank" on the show, Everybody Loves Raymond... "...Holy Crap!" Man, this is too deep for me... and I'm a diver.

Religion has been the cause for most wars throughout the world... now I understand...

Wayne

 

[jaymshultz]

The Jewish nation has never prompted any war....ever.

 

[southern Maine diver]

Hey Jay

I got your E-mail... you got some issues... Lighten up man? What say we talk about bottles, diggin and diving...[]

Wayne