Help identifying beer/wine (?) squat bottle.

[sandchip]

Your bottle does indeed have an applied lip. I have plenty of turn-molded bottles with applied lips. What we call tooled top bottles were formed in full height blowback molds where the bottle and lip are all formed in the mold which enlarges above the top, resulting in the glass becoming very thin at that area, so the blowpipe and the thin glass is knocked off instead of being wetted off. Then the lipping tool is inserted and the bottle finished, saving time over the course of a workday and producing more bottles. I did see an early video (around 1900) of workers blowing little drugstore bottles like this. They were flat out gettin' it! Anyway, the fact that the glass becomes so thin in the bulbous blowback portion of the mold above the lip would preclude any turning of the bottle in the mold. So, just because turn-molded bottles were popular in the latter part of the 1800s when tooled tops became so prevalent, doesn't mean that all earlier manufacturing techniques were abandoned. In the case of turn molding, the gaffers couldn't. I have more applied top turn-molded bottles than tooled top examples. It's conceivable that, in the case of tooled top, turn-molded examples, that a full height mold was used, the bottle wetted from the blowpipe just at the top of the lip, and the top tooled. I have a whiskey like this. I'm not sure if this is the case or not. Still stewing on that one.

As far as inserting the finger into the mouth of the bottle to check for an applied top, sometimes that works, sometimes it does not. It all depends on the size of rod portion of the lipping tool, temperature of the glass, etc.

Hope this helps, if it all makes any sense.

Another thing: we can't always pigeonhole things into defined time periods as far as technology goes. How long have smart phones been on the market? And many folks still use flip phones, and a few, rotary desk phones? There will always be periods of transition of varying lengths in regards to the acceptance and use of all types of technologies.

 

[diggansearch]

I drew these trhee diferent sections I identified. Hope they explain better than words. The second drow is definitly your bottle. Maybe the uneven ridge mentioned in other posts is a diference of diameter inside, like te third section.
Somone can explain how was made ich one of they? If there is another kind of finish, I want to know.

 

[sandchip]

Hope you don't mind me amending your drawing, but this might better explain what's going on in the case of Tropichahni's bottle.

 

[diggansearch]

That drawing just illustrate your good explanation, sanchip

 

[tropichahni]

OK it's pretty clear now. I have definitely added to my knowledge with this one. So, with this information. What sort of value does a bottle like this have?

 

[Harry Pristis]

"It's conceivable that, in the case of tooled top, turn-molded examples, that a full height mold was used, the bottle wetted from the blowpipe just at the top of the lip, and the top tooled. I have a whiskey like this. I'm not sure if this is the case or not. Still stewing on that one."

Stew no longer, sandchip. You've described how tooled top bottles are finished, whether or not they are turned in the mold.

On the other hand, I think your description the use of burst lip or blow-back molds is exaggerated. Why would a lipping tool be required if the lip is already created in the mold? Grinding the ragged lip or fire-polishing would be less labor intensive. For reference, blow-back molds were used for early canning jars and for British inks and perfumes.

Here's what Munsey says about blow-back molds:

​

 

[sandchip]

I always thought that the full height blow-back molds were used only on fruit jars and screw tops like snuffs, until I saw that video. It was a real eye opener. I wish I could remember where I saw it. Tooling would take no longer on a bottle blown in a full height blow-back mold than it would an applied top, and far less time than grinding. It would shock you just how fast the seasoned glassworkers accompished this, probably under 15 seconds per bottle, from gather to blow to tooled and done.

I'll see if I can take a few pictures to illustrate those examples where the entire top was formed in the mold, then the top tooled as well. It is what it is.

 

[Harry Pristis]

[snip]
I'll see if I can take a few pictures to illustrate those examples where the entire top was formed in the mold, then the top tooled as well. It is what it is.

I agree that you should provide some evidence for your claim that blow-back molds were used on bottles like the original in this thread. And, that a lipping tool was used on those bottles.

We already agree that full height molds were used, then the lip was tooled. These are common at the TOC19.

The disagreement is over the use of the BLOW-BACK full height mold. So, if you are going to present images here, they should demonstrate that the bottle was blown in a blow-back mold. Good luck with that.

 

[sandchip]

We already agree that full height molds were used, then the lip was tooled.

How else would a full height mold be configured without the enlarged (blow-back) area above the very top of the bottle? I wasn't there, nor am I being contentious, just want to hear what you're thinking on the matter. I guess that the gaffer could withdraw the blowpipe just enough to clear the top opening of the mold and give it another puff, but that would take more time, when making the mold with the blow-back cavity in the first place would make more sense. The main reason for the blow-back is allow the glass to be blown thin enough in that spot to break from the blowpipe easily, eliminating the need to wet. The picture of the mold that you shared appears to be that of an ale. I've seen many ales of that shape, but never one with a ground top. No bigger than the cavity appears in the picture, maybe a tooled top, turn mold is possible in a blow-back mold, since the glass in that spot would retain enough thickness to turn the bottle without twisting in that spot.

When I post some pictures, how will you be able to determine if the bottle's mold had or didn't have a blow-back cavity? I don't see how that would be possible without having the original, corresponding mold for that particular bottle, but maybe I'm missing something here. I've got some ideas, but I'm gonna have to look at some (many, that is) bottles first.

I only thought that I had looked closely at old bottles. I would think that of all the TOC19 bottles blown in a full height mold, if they were wetted off and tooled, that there would have to be an example out there that would exhibit crazing lines.

 

[Harry Pristis]

How else would a full height mold be configured without the enlarged (blow-back) area above the very top of the bottle? I wasn't there, nor am I being contentious, just want to hear what you're thinking on the matter. I guess that the gaffer could withdraw the blowpipe just enough to clear the top opening of the mold and give it another puff, but that would take more time, when making the mold with the blow-back cavity in the first place would make more sense. The main reason for the blow-back is allow the glass to be blown thin enough in that spot to break from the blowpipe easily, eliminating the need to wet. The picture of the mold that you shared appears to be that of an ale. I've seen many ales of that shape, but never one with a ground top. No bigger than the cavity appears in the picture, maybe a tooled top, turn mold is possible in a blow-back mold, since the glass in that spot would retain enough thickness to turn the bottle without twisting in that spot.

When I post some pictures, how will you be able to determine if the bottle's mold had or didn't have a blow-back cavity? I don't see how that would be possible without having the original, corresponding mold for that particular bottle, but maybe I'm missing something here. I've got some ideas, but I'm gonna have to look at some (many, that is) bottles first.

I only thought that I had looked closely at old bottles. I would think that of all the TOC19 bottles blown in a full height mold, if they were wetted off and tooled, that there would have to be an example out there that would exhibit crazing lines.

The lip of a full height mold is at the opening of the mold. The parison is sheared off (less likely 'wetted' off because the glass is still plastic) at the top of the mold. The lipping tool is then inserted into the exposed mouth of the bottle both to create a uniform opening and to press the glass firmly into the lip part of the mold.

If the mold has been prepared with paste and a few drops of water for lubrication. Perhaps the same or similar lipping tool could be used to turn the bottle which is still in the mold. The same tool might also be used to remove the bottle from the mold.

All the illustrations of mold marks in Munsey's book employ the same generic bottle drawing. Don't take the form literally.

Ah, yes! It is not possible to look at the bottle in question or any similar bottle and say that it was blown in a blow-back mold. Yet, you were willing to assert that bottles like this were blown in such a mold.

I appreciate your willingness to examine this subject with equanimity.

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