Love those river dumps.

[adshepard]

Awesome finds! I love old steamer artifacts. I collect them while diving the old wharves in Maine. Buttern pats are fairly common but a pitcher with a company logo is an extreme rarity. I've only got one.

I do have one nice gauge from a blown boiler.

Congrats again on the finds and thanks for sharing.


Alan

 

[Potlidboy]

Thanks all .....nice comments.

 

[bottlecrazy]

Great artifacts. Love the pitchers. For anyone in the area, the whale museum in New Bedford, Mass., is a terrific little museum, well worth the visit. Why do I mention that here? Well, they have lots of gorgeous ships' pitchers in their collection and on display. I drool over them every time I go there!

 

[coldwater diver]

can't dive fcan't dive for goodies in California Riversor goodies in California Rivers

Mike why can't you dive the California rivers?

 

[Potlidboy]

coldwater

The States of California & Oregon wish to protect anything of historic interest for the people....a great notion. Our very liberal states frown on collectors removing historical items from public land & waters....again a great notion. Oregon recently forbids individuals from removing items on private property, even with permission from the owner or in owning the property itself...not such a great notion. Its a new time...upsetting in many ways. Many other states employ private parties to assist state archeologists in the recovery of meaningful artifacts. For example, South Carolina issues permits to recover fossils which are recorded by the state then returned to the finder. All of the items I have were recovered strictly following the law.

It is a large topic. Common sense and personal responsibility must prevail.

Potlidboy

 

[sandchip]

Georgia prohibits removing stuff from the rivers too. The d!ckhead state arch convinced the legislators that everything in the rivers are in their original context. What a joke. Nothing in our rivers is in the same place it was yesterday, much less hundreds or thousands of years ago. He also was asked in an interview if he would rather artifacts eventually be destroyed by the currents than to be removed by collectors, and he replied "That is correct."

Here's a good read (well, bad that is). All collectors of ANY antiquity need a national lobbying group like the NRA to constantly monitor and fight any legislation that might be introduced at state or federal levels that might adversely affect our hobby. Once these stupid@ss laws are passed, they are virtually impossible to have repealed. Don't think that just because it hasn't happened in your state that it can't. The government's ultimate objective is to ban collecting of anything old, period. Check it out:

UNESCO SINGLE NEGOTIATING TEXT
proposed as a working document by the Chairman

Preamble

The States Parties to the present Convention,

Acknowledging the importance of underwater cultural heritage as an integral part of the cultural heritage of humanity and a particularly important element in the history of peoples, nations, and their relations with each other concerning their common heritage,

Noting growing public interest in underwater cultural heritage,
Aware of the fact that underwater cultural heritage is threatened by unsupervised activities not respecting fundamental principles of archaeology and of the need for conservation and research of underwater cultural heritage,

Aware further of increasing commercialization of efforts to recover underwater cultural heritage and availability of advanced technology that enhances identification of and access to it ,

Deeply concerned by activities aimed at the sale, acquisition or barter of underwater cultural heritage, activities that increasingly jeopardize underwater cultural heritage,

Conscious also of growing threats to underwater cultural heritage from various other activities, namely exploitation of various natural resources and construction,

Believing that cooperation among States, archaeologists, museums and other scientific institutions, salvors, divers and their organizations is essential for the protection of underwater cultural heritage,

Considering that exploration, excavation, and protection of underwater cultural heritage necessitates the application of special scientific methods and the use of suitable techniques and equipment as well as a high degree of professional specialization, all of which indicates a need for uniform governing criteria,

Recognizing that underwater cultural heritage should be preserved for the benefit of humankind, and that therefore responsibility for its protection rests not only with the State or States most directly concerned with a particular activity affecting the heritage or having an historical or cultural link with it, but with all States and other subjects of international law,

Bearing in mind the need for more stringent measures to prevent any clandestine or unsupervised activity which, by destroying the environment surrounding underwater cultural heritage, would cause irremediable loss of its historical or scientific significance,

Realizing the need to codify and progressively develop rules relating to the protection and preservation of underwater cultural heritage in conformity with international law and practice, including the UNESCO Convention on the Means of Prohibiting and Preventing the Illicit Import, Export and Transfer of Ownership of Cultural Property of 14 November 1970, the UNESCO Convention concerning the Protection of the World Cultural and Natural Heritage of 16 November 1972 and the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea of 10 December 1982,

Convinced that information and multi-disciplinary education about underwater cultural heritage, its historical significance, serious threats to it, and the need for responsible diving, underwater exploration and other activities affecting it, will enable the public to appreciate the importance of underwater cultural heritage to humanity and the need to preserve it, and
Committed to improving the effectiveness of measures at international, regional and national levels for the preservation in situ or, if necessary for scientific or protective purposes, the careful removal of underwater cultural heritage that may be found beyond the territories of States

Have agreed as follows:
Article 1 - Definitions
For the purposes of this Convention:
1. (a) "Underwater cultural heritage" means all traces of human existence which have been partially or totally underwater, periodically or continuously, for at least 100 years including:
(i) sites, structures, buildings, artefacts and human remains, together with their archaeological and natural contexts;
(ii) vessels, aircraft, other vehicles or any part thereof, their cargo or other contents, together with their archaeological and natural context; and
(iii) objects of prehistoric character, as well as sites with spiritual associations for indigenous peoples.
(b) installations deliberately placed on the seabed for a specific purpose and still in use for that purpose shall not be considered as "underwater cultural heritage".
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, a State party may designate certain traces of human existence within its jurisdiction as underwater cultural heritage, even though they have been underwater for less than 100 years.
3. "States Parties" means States which have consented to be bound by this Convention and for which the Convention is in force.
4. "UNESCO" means United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.
5. "Director-General" means the Director-General of UNESCO.
6. "Rules" means the Rules concerning activities directed at underwater cultural heritage contained in the Annex.
7. "Area" means the sea-bed and ocean floor and subsoil thereof, beyond the limits of national jurisdiction.
8. "Activity directed at underwater cultural heritage" means activity having underwater cultural heritage as its object or as one of its objects and which may, directly or indirectly, physically disturb or otherwise damage underwater cultural heritage.
9. ¡§Activity incidentally affecting underwater cultural heritage¡¨ means activity which, despite not having underwater cultural heritage as its object or as one of its objects, may physically disturb or otherwise damage underwater cultural heritage.
10. ¡§Partial agreement¡¨ means agreement between certain States Parties to this Convention which are not from the same geographical region.
11. ¡§Necessary measures¡¨ means those that are deemed essential following an assessment of the probable risk and the degree of seriousness of such possible adverse effects.
Article 2 - Warships
1. This Convention shall apply to wrecks of any warship, naval auxiliary or any other vessel or aircraft and to its remains and contents where it was owned or operated by a State and identifiable as such and used, at the time of its sinking, only on governmental and for non-commercial purposes.
2. In their internal waters, archipelagic waters, territorial sea and contiguous zone, coastal States may take measures for protection of the underwater cultural heritage described in paragraph 1.
3. No action will be taken by the coastal State to recover underwater cultural heritage described in paragraph 1 and located in the maritime areas described in paragraph 2, unless it has been expressly abandoned by the flag State, without the collaboration of the flag State.
4. No action will be taken by the flag State to recover underwater cultural heritage described in paragraph 1 and located in the maritime areas described in paragraph 2 without the collaboration of the coastal State.
5. The coastal State and the flag State will collaborate for the protection of the underwater cultural heritage described in paragraph 1 and located on the continental shelf.
Article 3 (old 3) - Objectives and general principles
1. This Convention aims to implement and strengthen the protection of the underwater cultural heritage as provided in UNCLOS.
2. States shall preserve underwater cultural heritage for the benefit of humankind in accordance with the provisions of this Convention.
3. States shall, individually or jointly as appropriate, take all measures consistent with this Convention that are necessary to protect underwater cultural heritage, using for this purpose the best practicable means at their disposal and in accordance with their capabilities.
4. States shall co-operate in the protection of underwater cultural heritage, in particular with all other States with a verifiable link to the heritage concerned.
5. The preservation in situ of underwater cultural heritage shall be considered as the first option before engaging in or allowing any activities directed at this heritage.
6. Underwater cultural heritage shall not be commercially exploited.
Article 4 (old 2 bis) - Relationship to law of the sea
1. Nothing in this Convention nor any act performed on the basis of this Convention shall prejudice the rights, the present or future claims or legal views of any State relating to the law of the sea.
2 No act or activity undertaken on the basis of this Convention shall constitute grounds for claiming, contending or disputing any claim to national sovereignty or jurisdiction.
Article 5 (old 12.2) - Relationship to law of salvage and law of finds
Underwater cultural heritage to which this Convention applies shall not be subject to the law of salvage or law of finds unless it is in full conformity with this Convention.

Article 6 (old X) - Activities incidentally affecting underwater cultural heritage
1. Each State Party shall use the best practical means at its disposal to prevent any adverse effects that might arise from activities incidentally affecting underwater cultural heritage in its inland waters, internal waters, archipelagic waters, territorial sea, or continental shelf.
2. Where a State Party designates as requiring special protection underwater cultural heritage in its internal waters, archipelagic waters and territorial sea, or on its continental shelf, it shall take all necessary measures to ensure that activities do not adversely affect such underwater cultural heritage.
Article 7 (old 2 ter) - Regional, partial or bilateral agreements
1. States Parties may enter into regional, partial or bilateral agreements, or develop existing agreements, for the preservation of underwater cultural heritage. All such agreements shall be compatible with the provisions of this Convention and shall not dilute the universal character of the Convention. States may, in such agreements, adopt rules and regulations which would ensure better protection of underwater cultural heritage than those adopted at global level.
2. The Parties to such bilateral, partial or regional agreements may invite States with a verifiable link to the heritage concerned to join such agreements.
Article 8 (old 4) - Underwater cultural heritage
in inland waters, in internal waters, archipelagic waters and territorial sea
1. States Parties, in the exercise of their sovereignty, have the exclusive right, subject to Article 2, to regulate and authorize activities directed at underwater cultural heritage in their internal waters, archipelagic waters and territorial sea.
2. Without prejudice to other international agreements and rules of international law regarding the protection of underwater cultural heritage, States Parties shall require that the Rules of the Annex be applied taking into account the cultural significance of the heritage, to activities directed at underwater cultural heritage in their internal waters, archipelagic waters and territorial sea.
3. Any State Party, at the time of its ratification or accession to this Convention, may declare that the Rules contained in the Annex shall apply to inland waters which are not of a maritime character.
Article 9 (old 4 bis) - Underwater cultural heritage in the contiguous zone
States Parties may regulate and authorize activities directed at underwater cultural heritage within their contiguous zone. In so doing, they shall require that the Rules of the Annex be applied, taking into account the cultural significance of the heritage.
Article 10 - Reporting of finds on the continental shelf
1. A coastal State may require the finder of underwater cultural heritage on its continental shelf to report it to the competent authorities of that State.
2. Each State Party shall require its nationals to report to its own competent authorities any find of underwater cultural heritage not covered by paragraph 1.
Article 11 - Non-interference with the natural resources of the continental shelf
1. Since activities directed at underwater cultural heritage inevitably affect the natural resources on the continental shelf, a coastal State may require, in pursuance of its right to protect natural resources on its continental shelf, that no such activities take place before the coastal State has evaluated the effect on those resources.
2. The coastal State may allow activities directed at the underwater cultural heritage on its continental shelf subject to conditions which shall include the Rules of the Annex.
Article 12 (old 7bis, original text) - Underwater cultural heritage in the Area
Any discovery of underwater cultural heritage in the Area shall be reported by the finder to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.
Article 13 - Regulation of Import
1. A State party shall make it an offence to import into its territory underwater cultural heritage which has not been excavated in accordance with the Convention.
2. To facilitate the import into the coastal State of underwater cultural heritage excavated on its continental shelf, the competent authorities of that State may issue an import permit for the underwater cultural heritage subject to observance of the Rules of the Annex.
Article 14 (Original text, Option 1, Art 6) - Non-use of areas under the jurisdiction
of the coastal State
States Parties shall take measures to prohibit the use of their territory, including their maritime ports and off-shore terminals, or other area under their jurisdiction or control, in support of any activity directed at underwater cultural heritage and inconsistent with the Convention .
Article 15 (Original text, Option 1, Art 7) - Prohibition of certain activities by nationals and ships
1. States Parties shall take all practicable measures to ensure that their nationals and vessels flying their flag refrain from engaging in any activity directed at underwater cultural heritage in a manner inconsistent with the Convention .
2. Measures to be taken by a State Party in respect of its nationals and vessels flying its flag shall include:
(a) prohibition of activities directed at underwater cultural heritage otherwise than in accordance with the Convention in areas where no State Party exercises control under Article 12;
(b) all practicable measures to ensure that they do not, in a manner contrary to the laws and regulations of a State Party which exercises control under Articles 11 or 12, engage in activities directed at underwater cultural heritage within the continental shelf of that State.
Article 16 (old 10) - Sanctions
1. Each State Party shall take [criminal, administrative or civil] measures imposing sanctions for the contravention of the measures referred in Articles [¡K].
2. States Parties shall co-operate with each other in the enforcement of these sanctions.
Article 17 (old 9 and 12) - Seizure and disposition of underwater cultural heritage
1. Each State Party shall take measures providing for the seizure of underwater cultural heritage brought into its territory and recovered from the seabed in the absence of a permit that has been properly issued by a competent authority in accordance with the Convention or that has been excavated or recovered in a manner not in conformity with the Convention.
2. Each State Party shall record, protect and take all reasonable measures to conserve underwater cultural heritage seized under this Convention.
3. Each State Party shall notify any seizure of underwater cultural heritage that it has made under this Convention to the Director General of UNESCO and to any other State with a verifiable link to the heritage concerned.
4. A State Party which has seized underwater cultural heritage shall ensure that its disposition be for the public benefit, taking into account the need for conservation and research, the need for re-assembly of a dispersed collection, public access, exhibition and education, and the interests of any State with a verifiable link to the heritage concerned.

Article 18 (old 13) - Collaboration and Information-sharing
1. States Parties shall co-operate with and assist each other in the protection and management of underwater cultural heritage under this Convention, including, where practicable, collaborating in the investigation, excavation, documentation, conservation, study and presentation of such heritage.
2. To the extent compatible with the purposes of this Convention, each State Party shall share information with other States Parties concerning underwater cultural heritage, including discovery of heritage, location of heritage, heritage excavated or recovered contrary to this Convention or otherwise in violation of internaÈÎtional law, pertinent scientific methodology and technology, and legal developments relating to heritage.
3. All information shared between States Parties, or between UNESCO and States Parties, regarding the discovery or location of underwater cultural heritage should be kept confidential and reserved to competent authorities of States Parties to the extent compatible with their national constitution as long as the disclosure of such information might endanger or otherwise put at risk the preservation of such underwater cultural heritage.
4. Each State ParÈÎty shall take all practical measures to disseminate inÎformation, including where feasible through appropriate international databases, about underwater cultural heritage excavated or recovered contrary to this Convention or otherwise in violation of international law.

Article 19 (old 15) - Education
Each State Party shall take all practical measures to raise public awareness regarding the value and significance of underwater cultural heritage and the importance of protecting it under this Convention.
Article 20 (old 16) - Training in Underwater Archaeology
States Parties shall cooperate in the provision of training in underwater archaeological investigation and excavation methods, in techniques for the conservation of underwater cultural heritage, and in the transfer of technology relating to underwater cultural heritage.
Article 21 (old 18) - National Services
In order to ensure the proper implementation of this Convention, States Parties shall establish national services, where such services do not exist, or improve the existing ones where appropriate, with the aim of providing for the effective protection, conservation, presentation and management of, as well as research and education regarding underwater cultural heritage.

 

[Huntindog]

WOW! Sandchip,
Sounds like you live in Cali...
It's getting harder and harder to enjoy our hobies.

Potlidboy,
I had one of those Butterpats once... But unfortunately it succumbed back to the bottle gods...
Great story.
Thanks

 

[Potlidboy]

Jimbo

Thank you......The whole topic overwhelms me & is meant by the bureaucrats to do that very thing. This paragraph is particulary disturbing:

2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, a State party may designate certain traces of human existence within its jurisdiction as underwater cultural heritage, even though they have been underwater for less than 100 years.

Basically this paragraph is a catch all...saying the powers to be can make up their mind to suit the event. In theory they can seize anything, any time any where.

You are absolutely correct..the basic freedom of our hobby is under assault. In a quote from 'Witness' with Harrison Ford "Be careful out there among the English".


Thank you.

Potlidboy

 

[andy volkerts]

The upshot is, dig secretly if possible, and dont get caught, never say where you are digging on a forum such as this, and never leave evidence of digging at the site............

 

[oaks6810]

The sounding weight is really cool!! Yeah I bet Cali. has some crazy insane laws on what you can and can't do with "historical artifacts", they do on everything else.