Newbie with a Coca cola bottle questions

[SODAPOPBOB]

PS ~ PS

Also check the bases/bottoms of the bottles, especially the post 1951 examples. You will likely find makers marks there as well.

 

[surfaceone]

Chester Carl Butler...

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Surf ~

Very interesting. Thanks.

It would be interesting to know where Butler got his bottles and whether they were made overseas or shipped from the United states. It would also be interesting to know if Butler bottles were marked as such, or had no marks whatsoever? Maybe the 5K was a Butler mark. But irregardless, according to the following, it doesn't appear that Butler was involved with wartime production of Coca Cola ...

When World War II started in 1941, Chester Butler was one of the American citizens taken to Japan as a prisoner of war. He was interned in a prison camp in Japan. When he returned to Guam after the war his businesses were in ruins. The bottling plant, movie theater and Butler’s Emporium were completely destroyed during the American bombardment of Hagåtña in 1944, and the re-established American naval government took possession of most of his property in Hagåtña.

 

[hemihampton]

Have you ever found any Beer cans the US military left behind in Guam? I'd be interested in those. Especially the olive drab Camouflage ones. Let me know? LEON.

 

[daven2nl]

Thanks for the responses!

If you know where to look, there are thousands of old coke bottles in the jungle. Scattered individually, and in scattered piles where they were dumped. No digging here on Guam - the topsoil is only a couple inches deep and then it's all limestone, at least on the northern end of the island.

I have a few in my collection, but as a member of the Coast Guard, I am limited in the amount of stuff I can bring when transferred. My wife and kids things take priority! That said, I prefer to leave most untouched so the next generation has something to explore.

I have always understood that the date can be read off the side (skirt) of old coke bottles. Some sort of plant code to the left of the MFR mark, with the last two digits of the date to the right. I have never found a coke bottle here on Guam with a date earlier than 44 - but I am primarily interested from a WW2 history aspect and have only explored areas touched during and after wartime. The coke bottles are so plentiful that they make a very convenient way for me to date the dump I'm exploring. If they are post-war (not 1944/45) I am honestly not interested and move on. My primary interest in bottles are the Japanese WW2 type that were brought here during the occupation. They are much more difficult to find however I've stumbled across a couple places where they too are plentiful.

I've seen bottles collected by fellow Coasties who have visited various islands in the Pacific - such as Palmyra Atoll - and the ones they have are older, typically 42 or 43. I attest the lack of older bottles here on Guam to the fact that it was Japanese occupied territory until July 1944.

Here are two examples from my collection. On the left is a typical green hobbleskirt, embossed Oakland CA on the base. The one on the right is the typical clear coke bottle, either with nothing on the base or sometimes with a single raised point offset from the center.

One additional thing of note - I've found clear coke bottles from the same year (1944 and 45) with both the Patent D embossing and with only "Trade Mark". I'd say it's about 50/50 one or the other.

I did my best to take a close-up of the date code info on the two bottles. The green one is difficult to read due to weak embossing. The Oakland bottle on the left is 5K <|> 44 (where <|> is the Owens Corning mark) and the clear bottle to the right is more easily read - 8P <|> 44.

If it would be helpful to anyone, I could bring a notebook out with me the next time I explore and write down all the skirt data I can find, to be able to provide more data points. Between my son and I, we've only got about a dozen that we've kept.

-Dave

PS: Leon, if you didn't see my other post, unfortunately any metal beverage cans that may have been discarded have long rusted away here in the tropics. A few months back I found an old aluminum canteen; even it was corroded into swiss cheese. Only the stainless steel US serving trays seem to have survived - I've found a couple of them, one even with the owners initials scratched into the bottom of it. I'll keep my eye out however, and keep you in mind - you've got "dibs".

 

[daven2nl]

I think I answered my own question by poking around some more on Google. According to Bill Lockhart http://www.sha.org/research/owens-Illinois_article.cfm the code to the left of the manufacturers mark is the mold number, not plant code, at least in the 1944/45 years. So, I can imagine there would be all sorts of variety to this number.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

daven2nl ~

First of all, thanks for the great pictures. The one of the bottle dump is unique and suitable for framing.

Secondly, I'm not sure you understood the Lockhart info correctly. Notice where he (quoting Bill Porter) said ...

"In 1951, two changes occurred simultaneously. The date code migrated to the left, and the manufacturer's mark moved to the base of the bottle. The remaining embossing on the skirt was the two-digit date code, a dash (-), then the two-digit mold code on the right. These changes occurred about mid-year, so Coke bottles are found with both configurations. Some Owens-Illinois-made Coke bottles actually used the standard Owens- Illinois format."

Which means 1940s Coke bottles have plant numbers and date numbers on either side of the Owens-Illinois mark, and that this mark and numbers are on the side of the bottles. For example: 21 <(I)> 44 would indicate the bottle was made at the San Francisco Plant #21 in 1944.

Mold numbers did not migrate to the sides of bottles until 1951, which is what I indicated in my reply #9.

SPB

 

[daven2nl]

Hmmm... I'm confused now. Here's the sentence before the one you quoted (from Bill Porter):

"Virtually all glass houses making Coke bottles had changed to "skirt" markings by 1934 (see below). This consists of a two-digit mold code followed by a manufacturer's mark (in the case of Owens-Illinois, the earliest mark with the elongated diamond) and the two digit date code (to the right) all embossed on the narrowest constriction of the "skirt" or lower half of the bottle."

This is where I got the info... am I interpreting this correctly that the number to the left is the mold code, and the number to the right the date, in 1940's coke bottles? I'm thinking the plant number was not embossed on Coke bottles before 1951 - only a mold number and the date (with the MFR mark). This would explain why I'm finding oddball annotations to the left of the MFR mark in 44/45 coke bottles - since they aren't plant codes at all.

Of course this is not the case with most other bottles of the era, which have the plant code to the left, year to the right, and mold number underneath, but the cokes were different.

My apologies if I'm in the wrong... I'm just trying to sort this out in my head!

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Every 1940s Owens-Illinois Coca Cola bottle I am aware of has the plant number and date number on the side. The 1934 reference pertains to other makers marks and not specifically to Owens-Illinois bottles. There were lots of other glass makers who made Coca Cola bottles in the 1940s.

But I admit I have never seen or heard of the 5K and 8P marks before. And I'm not sure Bill Porter has either. In fact, I am just now getting ready to send Bill this info, along with your pictures to see what he has to say about those two never before seen marks. I have Bill's book and cannot find any mention of those two marks. You might be the first one to have discovered them.

By the way, if in fact Bill doesn't have examples of those marks in his 2,000+ collection of Hobbleskirt bottles, would it be possible to acquire a few examples? I'd like one of each myself.

I will let you know what Bill has to say just as soon as I hear back from him. I have communicated with Bill numerous times and have even sold and purchased several bottles to him.

Bob

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

PS ~

Have you examined enough of the 5K and 8P bottles yet to determine if those marks are on both the green and the clear bottles? Or is each mark specifically on one color or another?

Thanks.

Bob