OWENS-ILLINOIS MARK 4285G ~ WHAT DOES IT STAND FOR?

[SODAPOPBOB]

Roger ~

I have seen references to the term "cavity" numerous times but am totally confused about it, which you might be able to educate me on. As we know, the word "cavity" is defined as a blank or empty space. So why would a mold shop need two seperate numbers, one for the mold itself and one for the mold's "empty space?" For me it just doesn't make sense. I once read, but have since lost track of the link, that stated the bottom number ... (with the example below being a 3 - which I inserted the dots to center it)

20 <(I)> 48
.......3........

... was a "production indicator," meaning that certain molds were prone to greater use, and that the higher the number the higher the typical production count. In other words, a number 3 might indicate a typical production run of 3,000 bottles for a particular mold, whereas a number 6 indicates a typical production run of 6,000 bottles. Have you ever heard of this before? And is it possibly true?

Thanks.

Bob

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

I just spent the last hour re-researching the terms Mold vs Cavity and am 99.9% certain now what the bottom, or so called cavity numbers represent. I had forgotten, and was reminded during the course of my recent research, that bottle making machines use anywhere from two to as many as twenty-four molds at the same time. When I/we talk about molds it is easy to forget this and to assume that only a single mold is being discussed. But when you take into account how many molds are used at the same time, then we begin to realize the need for "individual cavity numbers." In other words, let's say a bottle making machine is being set up to make a bunch of G-94 bottles, and the bottle machine is designed to handle ten molds at the same time. The mold guy would then install the ten G-94 molds into the machine and proceed accordingly, which is easy enough to understand. But "what if" the bottle inspection guy at the end of the production line all of a sudden started detecting flaws in a some of the bottles? How would he know which mold was the problem mold without having a reference number of some type to refer to?

Answer: Each of the ten molds being used has a "seperate cavity number." Thus, all the inspection guy has to do is to pull the problem mold from the bottle making machine and either repair, eliminate, or replace it with a new mold. But without knowing the particular "cavity number" he would have no way of knowing which of the ten molds was the problem child.

Case closed? For me it is. But you will have to decide for yourself.

Bob

"It is well known in the bottle making art that many defects are cavity oriented. That is, a particular mold, of a plurality of molds, will tend to continue to produce a particular defect once the conditions are present to create the defect. It is thus necessary to determine which mold out of multiple molds is producing a defective bottle so that corrective measures may be taken. To this end, it is a common practice to mold into the bottom of containers a digital representation of the mold of origin; i.e., a bottle produced by mold number 7 will have a small numeral 7 molded into the bottom of the bottle. However, such markings are not readily readable by electronic means and require that each bottle be picked up to read the number. If each bottle from a particular mold is to be discarded, a person must memorize the complex pattern in which a particular mold's products will be distributed across the width of an annealing lehr and discard bottles based on this pattern. As may be appreciated, this procedure frequently results in the discard of some good bottles while allowing defective ones to pass, since confusion as to the pattern is common."

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Here's a perfect example of a G-94 style mold with a 51 cavity number. If this particular mold was being used at the same time on a ten mold machine, then the cavity numbers would be different on each of the ten molds.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

Here's your typical Owens-Illinois chart. Notice at the bottom of the text the reference to "cavity number." But also notice that it doesn't define in any way, shape, or manner exactly what the term cavity means. I hope my explanation puts it into laymen terms where others (like on this chart) have failed.

Bob

 

[wisodas]

Bob,
In the later 1910’s and through the 1920’s, a typical order for embossed soda water bottles blown on an Owens machine at the American Bottle Co. plant in Streator, Illinois would be blown in a pair of molds.

(Toulouse writes in error about the bottles produced at Streator between 1915 and 1929 (pp 454-455). The most common designation was like “17 S 1†or “17 S 2†(not “S17â€), with this arrangement commonly used up through 1929, and in a couple isolated cases, as late as 1933. Bottles blown at the Newark, Ohio plant of the American Bottle Co. may not have used this designation (“18 N 1â€) as extensively as it was used at Streator. (Very few Wisconsin bottles were blown at Newark, so I have an extremely limited number of examples to draw on.))

I have digressed – typical American Bottle Co. orders would be blown in a pair of molds, numbered “1†and “2â€. I suppose these would be mold cavity numbers. Mold cavity numbers higher than 2 are less common among 1915 to 1929 embossed bottles, but they do exist. I know I’ve seen 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 10. And even higher numbers on unembossed beer and soda water bottles, which unfortunately I have not made notes about. There seem to be singular instances of mold cavity numbers 1 through 10. These seem to be smaller orders of bottles – the bottles are indeed rarer - and the mold cavity numbers most commonly seen on these are 1 and 3 through 10.

After 1929, Owens-Illinois continued the paired cavity mold numbers, but instead of 1 and 2, one starts to see 1 and 1., 2 and 2., 3 and 3., etc., and even later sometimes 1 and 1_, 2 and 2_, 3 and 3_, etc. For example I have examined thirteen quart ACL Badger State bottles from Darlington, Wisconsin which were blown in standard G102 molds. The mold cavity numbers I’ve noted so far include 1, 5, 5., 7, 11, 11., 12, and 12.. Presumably there exists a 1. and a 7. and likely other pairs of numbers. The mold cavity numbers would not be tied the number of bottles scheduled to be blown, but are just mold cavity numbers.

So what is the reason for pairs of molds? In your photo of the 51., there would be a corresponding 51 (without the period) mold cavity number. Incidentally there are no “mold numbersâ€, as designated in the 1930 OI catalog, on any of these 1915 to 1929 bottles.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

wiso ~

That's your new name because you are a wealth of knowledge. A lot of the info you've been contributing has never seen the light of day that I am aware of. Textbook stuff. Good job. The factual and comprehensive manner in which you explain it is to be commended. Its obvious you've been around your share of bottles. Next I am going to print out your info so I can have it handy to read and soak up. After that I have a bunch of bottles to look at so I can start experimenting with this new found information you've provided.

Thanks again & Happy Holidays

Bob

 

[bottleopop]

SODAPOPBOB -

I was thinking the same thing - the number below the OI symbol was the number of a cavity in the bottle making machine. However, based on the data I collected from the OI bottles that I have (basically it's a statistical sample), there are way too many bottles where the number is "1". The frequency of the numbers I have agrees what wisodas is saying he has seen. Here is the data using the name Cavity number currently used in here:

Cavity# Count
 1	53
 2	12
 3	5
 4	2
 5	3
 6	1
 7	1
 9	1
 10	1
 1.	27
 2.	1
 none	37

So, 53 bottles have a 'cavity number' = "1". Also, 37 bottles have no third number; they have only the plant number and the 'date code' number.
I don't know what the dot means after the cavity number, but obviously 27 bottles are not cavity #11, they are more likely just a different way of writing a number 1. These numbers don't appear to exemplify what wisodas was saying about pairs of cavity mold numbers.

The only theory I can come up with at this point that could fit this data, and I don't think it's a very good one, is that the number identifies an entire bottle-making machine. So, if a plant had 2 bottle-making machines making bottles with Mold # G1234, then one machine would be #1 and the other machine would be #2. So bottles in the production line could be identified as to which machine made it. This theory is based on the supposition that usually only one machine would be making a bottle with a particular mold number, and I really have no idea how many machines was typical for a plant making one mold number of bottle at any given time.

 

[SODAPOPBOB]

bop ~

1. Are the 53 bottles yours?

2. If yours, what is the date range on the 53 bottles that have the number 1

3. What did you mean when you said "used in here" in your comments?

"Here is the data using the name Cavity number currently used in here."

Thanks.

Bob

 

[wisodas]

"Also, 37 bottles have no third number; they have only the plant number and the 'date code' number. "

With regard to missing mold cavity numbers - sometimes the mold cavity number is located on the back or front heel of the bottle.

Both the American Bottle Co. at Streator, and the OI company at Streator put mold cavity numbers on the back or front heel.

 

[bottleopop]

SODAPOPBOB -

1. Yes, I own them all. They are in my house.

2. Single digit 'dates' for those are: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 1., 3., 4., 5., 7. and double-digit dates for those are: 45, 47, 48, 49, 51, 52, 53, 54, 58, and 66 Some occur more than once.

3. As currently used in this forum.