what do we know about Iron Pontil marks

[bottlekid76]

As for the St. Louis area, Rudolph & John Adams was one of the first bottlers and in business as early as 1845. Their bottles are known with an iron pontiled base, although there is evidence of a few open pontiled examples from a couple of other soda water manufactures in or around the same time frame. I have never seen an OP R&J Adams bottle, whether one exists or not has yet to be discovered, but they are one of the earliest in business in that area of the country, and all of their examples are iron pontiled that are known. I know its already been covered that further back east they were using iron pontils on bottles much earlier, and I believe that is what you are working on defining. []

~Tim

 

[AntiqueMeds]

yes , a lot of glass making knowledge was lost.
but, by looking at enough bottles which can be fairly precisely dated we might be able to fill in a few blanks.
The exceptions dont really concern me much in this case, I'm more interested in the trends.

 

[cowseatmaize]

No question there are quite a few early smooth based bottles, especially the small flint medicines.
I'm not conviced they were manipulated with a snap case though.

I've almost never seen an example that absolutely had to be pontil in my opinion. I would think that real skilled workers with time on their hands could apply a gob and tool it while it's in the mold or maybe after it cooled a bit. The experience of the maker and the quantity of production probably made a difference. It may have been faster for a less skilled worker to use a rod of some type.
Exceptions would be where a fresh shear or crack off would have be to fire polished to smooth the lip.
Of coarse this is just another whacked out theory of mine.[]

 

[AntiqueMeds]

One thing I have noticed about early smooth based bottles is they are often flat on the bases and they often have small shards of glass melted into the bottoms.
This makes me think that they were using the bench or floor as the base of the mold.
These surfaces would be rough and covered with tiny shards which pretty much reflects these bottles' bases.
They could also form a crude flat flared lip just by pressing on the top of the bottle which wouldnt require holding the bottle with a punty or snap-case.

 

[cowseatmaize]

ORIGINAL: AntiqueMeds

One thing I have noticed about early smooth based bottles is they are often flat on the bases and they often have small shards of glass melted into the bottoms.
This makes me think that they were using the bench or floor as the base of the mold.
These surfaces would be rough and covered with tiny shards which pretty much reflects these bottles' bases.
They could also form a crude flat flared lip just by pressing on the top of the bottle which wouldnt require holding the bottle with a punty or snap-case.

I'm not an expert there either but Westford (1857-73) flasks comes to mind now with others. They are almost always called smooth base but always have an irregular base indent, as if something was pushed into the base. Talk about crude lip finishes too.

[8|]

 

[andy volkerts]

[] You are right Matt, I have a black glass Mrs S.A. Allens hair restorer that has a completely flat base with all kinds of glass pieces pushed up into it with a flattened tooled top that looks like it was made onna floor, crude as he__ I would post a pic of it if I wasnt so computer challenged[] Its so dark it wont pass any light at all.........Andy

 

[westernbittersnut]

For the western glass factories, 1859 was the beginning. Bottle examples from this factory have been found with sticky pontil mark. In 1860 an embossed medicine bottle was manufactured and examples of it have been found with a tubular pontil mark, iron oxide mark and smooth base all in the same year of manufacture.

 

[GLOPTOP]

I have a rare cathedral pickle bottle embossed "Rowe & Co." with a graphite/iron pontil and in a light cornflower blue coloration, from Detroit, Mich. in the mid 1850's. The only other one that I know of was found in Canada several years ago and came from the same mold and in the same light cornflower blue color, but sports an open or tubular type pontil. Two different pontil applications at about the same time from the same glasshouse. I don't have a clue about the glasshouse they were made at, but would sure like to know. Any Michigan collectors out there that might have any info. on this bottle?

 

[bottlekid76]

Sounds like a really good one. You might contact Bill (justanolddigger). He's a big collector up in Michigan and might be able to help you in finding out more about it. []

~Tim

 

[stlouisbottles]

Just to let you know Tim, I have held a green open pontil R&J Adams St Louis in my hands. It is in a collection and it is not for sale. I have a J.Cairns & Co. St Louis that is open pontil. I have seen a few others from St Louis but off the top of my head I cannot remember the names on them.