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  1. #201
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    I have one of those tonic water caps. They were used on the Canadian ACL bottles, which is the earliest example I know of where Schweppes was bottled, rather than simply sold, in Canada. It doesn't have any additional information printed on the edge. Never seen the ginger ale cap and it looks older to me. I'm very curious to know if Schweppes was ever bottled in Canada before the ACL era. I've never seen one of those heel-embossed bottles used in the UK over here, and if it was imported in the bottle you'd think that more of them would show up. Mind you, it's not like the ACL bottles are super common here either, so I'm not sure how popular Schweppes ever got over here. Even today it's a distant second to Canada Dry.
    Also regarding those labels, they're definitely from a wider age range than the 50s and 60s. Note how one features a bar code, which means it's from no earlier than the mid-1970s (and probably later). A couple also mention the king, which means they date to 1952 at the latest. And of course as you mention, the one in the top right looks much earlier than the 50s.

  2. #202
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    Thought this was interesting too, a similar label was being used for cans in the 70s http://www.canmuseum.com/Detail.aspx...=39347&Member=

  3. #203
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    Just to be clear about things (and please correct me if I'm wrong) ...

    But other than for some ILLUSTRATIONS shown in a few Vancouver, Canada newspapers and possibly magazines, there are no known examples of the Schweppes "white script" labels from Vancouver or anywhere else in Canada. In fact, I can't find where that label was ever used in the United States either. It now appears the Schweppes "white script" label was ONLY used in England, and possibly other foreign countries.

    If my assumptions are accurate, that means ????????????????

  4. #204
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    P.S.

    I sent Hans the picture of the Cross bottles I dated and asked him some more questions - and will let you know what he has to say when I hear back from him. However, I wouldn't hold my breath that he has the answers because I think he is getting a little confused. He doesn't seem to know all that much about what took place in Canada and the United States and keeps referring to the book I bought for the answers.

  5. #205
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    Just for the record / Confusion ...

    Australia ...


    1912

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    1940

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    Me

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  6. #206
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    Yes you're correct, I have no knowledge of any Canadian-produced Schweppes bottles of any type predating the ACL era. It's very possible that Schweppes was only available in imported bottles from the UK in the first half of the 20th century. I've found Schweppes stoneware shards in Ottawa, and they were definitely British imports. That's all I've ever found from Schweppes in the wild, and I haven't found anything from after 1930 or so.
    That first Australian ad is definitely interesting to see, that's the first cork top bottle I've seen bearing that label. I thought Schweppes had switched to crown tops by 1912 as well. I'm also curious about that bottle in the 1940 ad, it looks different than the British ones I've seen so far. It's definitely possible that Schweppes was being bottled in Australia by 1940.

  7. #207
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    The problem with historical trademark registration in Canada is that the practice of "passing off" was covered under Canada's criminal code from the 1890s onward. Before that, the English common law essentially outlawed the practice. Passing off occurs when one party either uses another's trademark as his trademark or creates a trademark that so closely resembles another party's trademark that it looks fundamentally the same in the layman's eyes. In either case, the offending party is passing off his wares as someone else's in order to derive financial benefit by trading on the good reputation of the party being copied. Anyhow, most Canadian pre-1930 bottlers did not register their trademarks because they didn't really have to, since all they really had to do in a case was show the court an example of the "passed off" trademarked example with the genuine article and prove that the genuine article came before the "passed off" one. No government trademark registration was required as proof.

    As to the Schweppes-Cross trademark relationship, it's quite likely Schweppes was aware of Cross's actions but determined either the passing off wasn't close enough -- think the fountain -- to mount a successful court challenge or that mounting a challenge, assuming there were grounds for such, just simply wasn't worth the time, energy and resources. I'm thinking the former was likely the case, though I'm still open to historical evidence which shows that a law suit did happen. Of course, there is always the possibility that Schweppes and Cross came to some sort of arrangement.

    All the same, it's been interesting following this thread.

  8. #208
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    mctaggart67

    Thanks for stopping by and sharing.

    You must be what my dad used to call a "Philadelphia Lawyer." Which is intended as a complement. I have never heard the term "passed off" but it totally fits the scheme of things. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened. I just wish we could find a Schweppes bottle or white/script paper label from Vancouver like the one in question. We know they advertised and probably sold it early on, but the lack of an actual bottle or paper label from Vancouver makes you wonder. I'm still thinking the next best thing is an early bottle CAP. But even those are eluding us. I'm also hoping the book I bought will have what we're looking for, and will report on that after it arrives in about a week. I heard from Hans again this morning - but all he said was that he knew nothing about what took place in Canada or the United States. Which kind of surprised me because he's the one who recommended the book - and if the book has that information, why didn't say so specifically? Anyway, if the book doesn't have the answers, I really don't know where else to look. I guess it will be up to our Canadian friends to keep digging and keep looking for ... ???

  9. #209
    Senior Member Bottle Master Canadacan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SODABOB View Post
    mctaggart67

    Thanks for stopping by and sharing.

    You must be what my dad used to call a "Philadelphia Lawyer." Which is intended as a complement. I have never heard the term "passed off" but it totally fits the scheme of things. It wouldn't surprise me if that's exactly what happened. I just wish we could find a Schweppes bottle or white/script paper label from Vancouver like the one in question. We know they advertised and probably sold it early on, but the lack of an actual bottle or paper label from Vancouver makes you wonder. I'm still thinking the next best thing is an early bottle CAP. But even those are eluding us. I'm also hoping the book I bought will have what we're looking for, and will report on that after it arrives in about a week. I heard from Hans again this morning - but all he said was that he knew nothing about what took place in Canada or the United States. Which kind of surprised me because he's the one who recommended the book - and if the book has that information, why didn't say so specifically? Anyway, if the book doesn't have the answers, I really don't know where else to look. I guess it will be up to our Canadian friends to keep digging and keep looking for ... ???
    Bob the research you've done is amazing, Always appreciate everyone's input too!...thanks so much fella's. And Thanks to CB for bringing this copycat label to the post!... I mean who would have ever thought that Schweppes was going to flood this feed!
    I concur at this time with CB, I have not seen any Schweppes labels any later than the already known ACL's. And the only label I've ever seen in Canada for the copycat label in paper is my Cross's on that green glass.
    Last edited by Canadacan; 11-06-2019 at 10:53 PM.
    Collecting Western Canadian sodas, and USA Orange Crush.

  10. #210
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    I finally received the 1983 Schweppes book that devotes about four pages to Schweppes expansion into the United States and Canada. However, most of the book deals with what took place in Europe. The U.S. / Canada part is somewhat vague but it does indicate that Schweppes was first introduced in both countries in the late 1800s. Then it jumps to the 1940s where it gets a little more interesting. Prior to the 1940s Grocers were reluctant to carry the brand because during that time period anyone who sold Schweppes was required to return the bottles to England. It doesn't say who had to pay the shipping fees for returning the bottles, but I get the impression it was the responsibility of whoever sold the brand. This might explain why some of the Canadian ads we have seen were those by the Hudson Bay Co., who was a distributor and not a grocer. Schweppes was well aware of the return bottle problem and between 1948 and 1950 initiated a "major push" to eliminate the problem and increase sales both in Canada and the United States. Their solution to the problem was to start granting franchises to bottlers in both countries, with the most notable franchise being granted to Pepsi Cola in 1953. After that things "really took off" and sales in Canada and the United States increased dramatically.

    As far as the white/script paper label is concerned, the book does not address it specifically, but by putting together some of the pieces of the puzzle from the book, the label definitely appears to have been used in the 1950s and 1960s for both the American and Canadian markets. The book does not say, nor can I explain why an identical label appears in ads as early as 1914. But whatever the explanation might be, those 1914 bottles and labels were definitely imported and not domestic. By the way, none of the references to Canada in the book specifically mentions Vancouver -- it just lumps Canada together without mentioning any specific locations.

    We may never know the whole story, but based on conjecture I gleaned from the book, I am prepared to speculate as follows ...

    1. The white/script paper labels were used in both Canada and the United States as early as the 1920s, but are extremely rare due to having an extremely limited market until the 1950s and 1960s when the franchises kicked in.

    2. The bottles that originally had the white/script paper labels from the 1950s and 1960s are those that have SCHWEPPES embossed on the heel. Find one of those bottles with a 1950s or 1960s date code on it and I believe the odds are pretty good that it originally had one of the white/script paper labels.

    So far so good, but a couple of nagging questions still remain: If the bottles with Schweppes embossed on the heel were as abundant as it might seem, then ...

    1. Why are there so few examples of them, especially from Canada?

    2. Why can't we find a single example of a paper label from either country, no matter how old it is?

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