ST DRAKE 1860 PLANTATION BITTERS Dating

[Rick]

Is there any way to properly date these bottles? Is there an age difference in the 4 log and 6 log versions? Thanks for any info.

 

[KentOhio]

Brian S. is the guy to talk to. I think the 4-logs are usually older, but I also think I've seen one or two pontiled 6-logs.

 

[BRIAN S.]

ORIGINAL: Rick

Is there any way to properly date these bottles? Is there an age difference in the 4 log and 6 log versions? Thanks for any info.

Hi Rick ,
It is generally believed that the 4log variant is the earliest ( because they are usually much cruder than the 5 and 6 logs ). I have been doing some research on this , and have found little actual evidence of this being true. I talked to another Bitters collector at the Knoxville Show this year and we had quite a lengthy discussion on this topic ..... and he brought up some very good points on the 6 log variant being the earliest. The company started in 1860 and went to mass producing in 1862. The 1860's thru the 1870's were their biggest production years. The product was produced for over 30 years.
There is one known ( believed to be unique ) pontiled variant ...... it was in the Carlyn Ring Collection ( it was expanded to become bulbous , and had a rough pontil mark ). I have seen a several copy cat bottles that are very simular to a Drake's mold that have iron pontils .
I hope I didn't totally confuse you , and I helped answer your question.

 

[bearswede]

Great information, Brian... Thanks...

There's been discussion on another thread about pontillation and dating using Drake's as one example... I guess what we sometimes forget is that there are no lines of demarcation... techniques don't stop immediately everywhere all at once... They fade in and out gradually thru space and time... Those folks who seek black/white sharpness of boundaries in glass blowing processes will always be disappointed I guess...


Ron

 

[cowseatmaize]

Just a note.
The Bertand set out from St Louis on March 18, 1865. Over 100 Drakes were recovered and they were the six log type. So 6 log were around before that time.

 

[appliedlips]

From a digging standpoint,I have never seen a difference in the ages of the two.I haven't dug many intact examples but have dug a ton of broken ones.The six logs show up in the early 60's holes and are almost all I dig,so the difference may be regional more than age.I only dug two broken Drake's that I can remember in New Hampshire dumps while living there,they were 4 logs.Doug

 

[GuntherHess]

pontillation

Isnt that what bees do to flowers? []

Crudeness doesnt always indicate an earlier version (but it usually does).
Even being pontil marked doesnt guarantee one example is older than another smooth based version.

 

[BRIAN S.]

ORIGINAL: GuntherHess

pontillation

Isnt that what bees do to flowers? []

Crudeness doesnt always indicate an earlier version (but it usually does).
Even being pontil marked doesnt guarantee one example is older than another smooth based version.

Your correct ! I have found no solid evidence that the 4 log is an earlier mold than the 6 log . I was just always led to believe it was from other old time collectors. A lot of the early advertisments also have 6 logs pictured in the ads .
You are correct on the pontils . The copy cat Drake's that are iron pontiled are later than the smooth base 6 loggers from Whitney.

 

[BRIAN S.]

ORIGINAL: cowseatmaize

Just a note.
The Bertand set out from St Louis on March 18, 1865. Over 100 Drakes were recovered and they were the six log type. So 6 log were around before that time.

Eric ,
Do you have access to any info on the Drake's that were found on the Bertrand ? I'm curious if they were just plain 6 logs ( D 105 , 0r D 108's )...... or maybe 6 log variants ( such as Arabesque , or maybe the no " X" variants.
There are several different 6 log molds ..... and I'm curious if some were blown at different glasshouses at the same time period Whitney was blowing the Drake's.

 

[Rick]

A book called The Bertrand Bottles has pictures of all the bottles along with line drawings of the sides and even the bottoms. If only all bottle books were like that.

There were also 6 log Drakes on the Stamship Republic that went down off the coast of Georgia in 1865.