Antique? Older than 50 years old?

[antlerman23]

Bravo... that was a well articulated answer.it did not sway me in the least, but it sounded good.The problem is that an "archaeological site dating back to 1952" sounds fucking hilarious.its just a ridiculous idea to think that 1950s refuse is considered "Historically important".sure it shows that people were there, but so what? I just don't get it.

 

[cowseatmaize]

No signs were placed. That would defeat the purpose of it being an archaeological site. We dont want to advertise there is a site in the area as it would promote looting.

If it's not posted, how can you call it looting. Was it fenced in? Who but the authorized personnel could know? Was it one of them? Hmmm, conspiracies, I like those!!!! Again, I think the law should have been from the time it was enacted, not from every day henceforth.Although..., in this age of recycling, that bottle in your hand may be rare in 50 years.[8|]

I was rather informing you the reader of the law that I am required by law proceed in prosecuting, considering it was at least a Misdemeanor committed in my presence.

I never thought I'd say this but I'm glad I live in MA. At least here we have things called warnings, both verbal and written.

 

[andy volkerts]

Jeez!! another example of a law being carried to extremely stupid conclusions. site not posted, but is an archeological site just the same, and we all should know that by a piece of crap junk 1940s bottle. Only in California and Oregon is this stupidity carried out with amazing regularity. Its too bad we cannot remove these stupid laws..........

 

[zecritr]

I collect lots of things from the 1950's,that is history,The korean war was in the 50's,guess what HISTORY,some here may think the bottle isn't history well that's okay but to demean other people for thinking it is........I don't know all the facts of the case but i have to agree if no signs or other sign that it is a archaeological site would make the case to me very iffy but then again......Hope you get all the info needed sounds like your doing a good and consciencess job. Someone who collects ketchup bottles might like it for the timeline of the company or the bottles etc. etc. Peace

 

[epgorge]

This is a great topic but has the potential to result in acrimonious debate so I would ask Members to keep the emotion out of their posts as much as they can. The poster is a State Peace Officer doing what his superiors have told them to do, they did not make the law they are doing their job. Debate the law for sure but please don't personalize it.

Thank you! A good perspective. To the dissenters, do remember this is the left coast; of California.Joel

 

[surfaceone]

I'm unable to post pics of the bottle at this time, due to it being processed for evidence. There are two seems that go down the length of the bottle and from what I remember they go through the bottle cap twists. The laws are written with the intent to prosecute those who steal items of historical interests for the state, and as a State Peace Officer I will enforce those laws. I happen to work for the state of California and per Title 14 CCR 4308 - it states no one shall remove items from a archaeological area. And department heads and the district attorney, have stated anything older than 50 years is deemed historical and therefore archaeological per CCR 4308...

Hello Officer Beehner, I understand your difficult position. I do not believe you have a good case, as this bottle cannot be precisely dated. This form has been used a long while, and is still in use today. I question the supposed archeological and historical signifigance of this item. What possible insight can be gained from an old vinegar bottle. Are you sure the person in custody was not policing up the area? Broken glass and trash glass have the potential to injure hikers and the unwary. Trash removal should not be criminal. I assume we are speaking of California State Park land. Are you aware of the many hundreds of objects that have been picked up from the bottom of Folsom Lake, now that the drought has revealed the former towns and encampments there? Certainly, in the case of Folsom Lake, there were posted warnings, but conspicuously absent enforcement. Perhaps this was due to the large crowds of visitors / miscreants who came to see some actual history revealed. Something is wrong with the law, that puts a higher "value" on a worthless (from a monetary, collector, or historical perspective) vinegar bottle, than the freedom and good name of one of it's citizens. This vinegar bottle is modern. It is not historic, in any sense of the word. What could possibly be "learned" by anyone from this empty bottle? Had I found it, I would have moved it to the nearest recycling, or trash depository. Does it make more sense to prosecute a citizen for picking up modern trash from a State Park and an "alleged" historic site, than to repatriate the bottle into the hands of the State Archeologist who values it so highly. Said archeologist is certain to catalog it and put it in a box, never to be seen again, but the cataloging and warehousing fees will be borne by the hapless citizens of California. This is a wonderful example of misguided laws creating a dubious No Win / No Win contretemps. I am sorry that you have to waste your time on a misguided matter such as this.

 

[epgorge]

I collect lots of things from the 1950's,that is history,The korean war was in the 50's,guess what HISTORY,some here may think the bottle isn't history well that's okay but to demean other people for thinking it is........I don't know all the facts of the case but i have to agree if no signs or other sign that it is a archaeological site would make the case to me very iffy but then again......Hope you get all the info needed sounds like your doing a good and consciencess job. Someone who collects ketchup bottles might like it for the timeline of the company or the bottles etc. etc. Peace

I think what he is saying is everything is historical, eventually, California has a 50 year rule on uncovering or digging for "artifacts". Eventually, in say, 2917, even plastic containers will be considered "artifacts". That is the way laws go in California. Fortunately for the rest of us, most State governments don't emulate California's laws. They are extreme. Home of Nancy Pelosi and her anti gun regiment. Another reason why it is imperative to get involved with legislation before it is enacted into law. But, most people are too busy or don't want to bother getting involved with legislative initiatives.Joel

 

[epgorge]

Regardless, of anyone "feelings" about whether this is right or wrong for California to have a law like this, it is their law. Again, that bottle should be able to be dated by the twists in the threads at the top of the bottle. The morphology of the industry makes that clear and we can all be thankful to Bill Lindsey for making that more possible with his intense research into that morphology at: http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm.Thank you Bill, you have helped me to better understand my hobby.Joel

 

[cowseatmaize]

Eventually, in say, 2917, even plastic containers will be considered "artifacts".

I suspect by then "plastic" will have been obsolete for centuries, at least petroleum based plastics. [][][]Therefor they will be very historical in nature.

 

[surfaceone]

Again, that bottle should be able to be dated by the twists in the threads at the top of the bottle. The morphology of the industry makes that clear and we can all be thankful to Bill Lindsey for making that more possible with his intense research into that morphology at: http://www.sha.org/bottle/dating.htm...

Uh, Joel, I think even Bill Lindsey would be sorely taxed to date this bottle precisely. Certainly it is post 1920, but precisely dating it by the continuous screw thread, I believe, is an impossibly tall order. Perhaps you can prove me wrong...